Mallette Posted June 26, 2002 Author Share Posted June 26, 2002 Actual room dimension from the plans is 23'9" X 15.5. The measurement I gave above was from tweet to tweet across the front, then from tweet to sofa center. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 26, 2002 Share Posted June 26, 2002 Measurement should be made from actual corners of room...the corners are a reflective surface that "double"...not the vertical centerline of front plane of speaker. The same goes for distance from front wall. ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted June 26, 2002 Share Posted June 26, 2002 I remember BobG recommending speakers be toed-in so the projection of the speakers' centerlines cross in front of the sweet spot, just as HDBRbuilder and MH suggest, so there. fini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 26, 2002 Share Posted June 26, 2002 If that's the case I would have to toe my Heresy's in about 60 degrees ?? That can't be right is it ? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 26, 2002 Share Posted June 26, 2002 Craig, Remember that as long as you remain within the dispersion coverage, but behind the intersection of the centerlines of fire...you are good to go...you will notice the difference as soon as you do it. The imaging and soundstage will be across your front and will NOT extend to your sides. Your ears will tell you...just close your eyes and "see" the soundstage and imaging...re-direct the speakers until it is where you want it. You MAY want to re-distance the speakers in or out from the wall/corner too...just close your eyes and listen. ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 Dave: I was just adding a little exageration onto that wall dimension. However, I would have guestimated it was slightly more than 21'. 24-25' does seem about right. By the way, your Khorns sure looked big. What were they, about 8' tall or so??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 I have always preferred sitting at the 45° angle intersection or slightly behind it. Sometimes I have 1 chair at the listening position and sometimes 2. With 2 chairs I like to look down the throat of the left speaker when seated in the right chair, and down the throat of the right speaker when seated in the left chair. After I read HDBR's last reply to my question I toed the K-horns in a bit more and I moved my listening chairs back. I have my seats at the apex of the equilateral triangle now, and I can see the outside panel of both speakers from either chair. I have always had good imaging but being back this far from the speakers has widened the sweet spot and it does sound good! My thanks to all who participated in this little discussion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 To be honest, I really dont like the axis crossing in front of me with any of my speakers but this does help with horns as others prefer this approach. I tend to really like being in the intersection. My Cornwalls are exactly 8'7 apart at the tweeters and my head ends up being positioned almost exactly 8'7 away as well. In addition, the Klipsch Cornwall is the very first speaker that I have remotely put in the corners of any room; all the dynamic speakers of the past I have attempted to bring OUT from the rear wall and AWAY from the side walls. This has always brought the best soundstaging width and depth, combined with proper imaging. My best listening rooms allowed this placement, and to be honest, if my current room allowed it, I would opt for this as well. As I said in the past, at least the horns are not affected as much by the usual negatives of corner placement. Corner placement has been necessary to bring up the bass performance in horn loaded systems but has never been beneficial when it comes to soundstaging or imaging. Almost 99% of all non horn loaded speakers and stereo reproduction SUFFERS from placing speakers dead in the corners near the wall reflections. The soundstage loses any sense of depth, the bottom end gets overly exaggerated and boomy, losing definition, the side wall reflections become problematic. Bringing the speaker away from the front and side walls brings about far improved sonics with clearer, more defined, imaging. My monitor speakers as well as my ProAc Towers sounded the best at least 4' from the front wall and well away from the side walls. As stated before, I have had my ProAcs up to 8' out into the room if the room permits it. What no one has mentioned here is the importance of good amplification in this whole picture. I have met with intense resistance on this matter in the past, but amplification plays a serious role in soundstaging, in both th width, depth, and imaging department. Tube amplification throws the most realistic soundstage I have heard (when in recordings). And monoblock amplification tends to excel in the width and separation department. Obviously, speaker placement is EXTREMELY important... but the amplifiers play a role here as well. The number one priority is still tone and a sense of life. The "visuals" do take a back seat here. Horns and tubes tend to do the TONE thing so damn well. Of course, we cant leave out dynamics. But the imaging has never been the strong suit although it can be damn good. In some ways, I miss the amazing soundstaging capability of my monitors and ProAc speakers. They both really excel in this area. But the Cornwalls make up for it in other ways, especially when employing low watt SE tube amplification (or even quality vintage). kh ------------------ Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Valhalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover Links system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted June 27, 2002 Author Share Posted June 27, 2002 "By the way, your Khorns sure looked big. What were they, about 8' tall or so???" No, they just SOUND that way. :-) HDBR: Well, you were there, and I've come to have enormous respect for your knowledge of PWK and Heritage. OTOH, I just re-read Section VII of the 8 Card, and it must be like the Bible: Saying one thing to one person and something else to another. "The Bell Telephone Laboratories used three speakers, the center either in an electrically independent channel or bridged across two stereo channels. No subsequent development has succeeded in obviating the need for three speakers, ecept where only the simple right-left effect is sought. For the hearing mechanism to be able to fuse the sounds into a curtain resembling the original, a source in the central area is needed." The last two paragraphs: "Filling of the "hole in the middle" becomes incidental; when the virtual sound sources correspond to the original locations, the resulting "accuracy of geometry" includes eliminating the hole in the middle. Without the center speaker, the absence of a hole in the middle becomes a rare "special case" for perhaps just one observing location and perhaps not even one location. This is true regardless of the stereo recording technique or number of microphones. no bridging of microphones can fill the hole in the center if there is no speaker there to reproduce it except sometimes for one unigque observing location. The center speaker is capable of affording the "solid sound curtain." That all sounds pretty definite to me. As I said somewhere above, I feel the entire 8 Card is Klipschorn specific. I toed mine in some this morning, listened with and without the center. Granted, this didn't get them closer together...that would be a real hassle. I heard no dramatic change in staging except with and without the Cornwall. What MH said about priorities: "The number one priority is still tone and a sense of life. The "visuals" do take a back seat here. Horns and tubes tend to do the TONE thing so damn well. Of course, we cant leave out dynamics. But the imaging has never been the strong suit although it can be damn good. In some ways, I miss the amazing soundstaging capability of my monitors and ProAc speakers. They both really excel in this area. But the Cornwalls make up for it in other ways, especially when employing low watt SE tube amplification (or even quality vintage)." This rings true for me. Some of my own location recordings have an excellent stage...perhaps because I was there and know where things and people were? Also other various recordings. Others are either LR or occasionaly LR and center. However, the MUSIC, the REALITY, the PRESENCE is always there. These are the critical things for me. I like it when my K'horns simply disappear, and there is nothing in the corner but Louis Armstrong. Now THAT is an IMAGE! Hey, you guys have made this thread fun and educational, too. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 After taking the time to make exact measurements, an adjustment of toeing my Belles 7 inches inward and moving the sweet seat(sofa) 12 inches forward, my ears are more pleased with the soundstage. Thanks to all for the thread. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 Dave, In NO WAY am I disputing the desired results from the three-speaker array. What I am trying to do is DIRECT you towards is what the meaning of this subject is all about. When using just a left and right speaker up front, the AREA in which those two speakers cross their DISPERSION paths is small...thereby leaving a "hole" forward of that "diamond-shaped" coverage area, and another PAIR of holes behind it...one to each side. By adding the center channel speaker, it lessens the SIZE of the hole to the front of the two-speaker dispersion area(makes it larger up front), AND adds to the dispersion area farther back to each sied of the original "diamond-shaped" area....THEREBY enlarging the effective dispersion area and providing MORE AREA in the room in which stereo effect is heard...that is all. As for the desire by PWK to have the speakers at the long ends of a room...that placement creates a larger room coverage of the dispersion area than having them at the narrow ends of the room...thereby giving the room more "fill" of stereo effect. That is what this is all about...nothing more, nothing less. ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 Tonight I will play with placement for the fun of it. I have my heresy firing way past me right now and they really have a nice sound stage the singer is alway near dead center and insturments play all over the place on a good recording. I agree with Mobile that amplification makes all the difference I can directly compare 3 different amps 2 tubes and 1 solid state and everyone puts out a different sound stage. The solid state has almost no sound stage at all. I'm going to have to do some serious toe in to get them firing in front of me. This will be interesting. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 Well, I am actually saying that you can achieve an amazing soundstage with excellent center fill without the use of a center speaker. I have had a soundstage on my good systems to extend up to 10 feet behind the speakers, and out past the speakers by a few feet. The idea of center fill is really a moot point as the perception of instruments via a live recording or properly recorded live event, depicts the stage and the placement of the instruments in space. I think that the center speaker, fed a mono signal combination actually can disable a bit of the precision of the imaging. Yes, it does give more center fill per say, and makes the sweet spot less critical, but if your setup is functioning as it should, the mono signal being fed is actually unnecessary and even slightly detrimental if you are sitting in the sweet spot. At the very least, it is one more connection, device, and obstacle to deal with and overcome. I think it does become necessary when you have a situation where your main speakers are something like 20 feet apart with you sitting half that distance away. I have always thought soundstaging to be a really amazing thing to behold, even if some think it artificial. To hear the drum kit in the far back, 10 feet behind the speaker plane with the other instruments in front and placed as they were on stage is almost spellbinding. And when you can perceive "air" around the instruments as if they have a physical presense and are not two dimensional, is truly an eye opening experience the first time it comes to fruition. Although I find center channel speakers helpful in home theater for the obvious reasons, I have always found them a hindrance in a good two channel setup. kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 06-28-2002 at 07:52 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 What everyone must keep in mind about the testing Bell Labs did that originated in the three speaker array concept...is that they were attempting to achieve more fill of a room with sound that was DIREECTLY RADIATED from the speakers. It had absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH STEREO IMAGING, since the source used in these experiments was MONO...NOT STEREO....It had only to do with more FILL of the room area with primary directivity from the speakers, instead of reflection from the speakers...Please keep this in mind!! Stereo imaging is provided by the left and right speakers. NOT by the center channel speaker...it is used ONLY for fill purooses to provide a larger PRIMARY coverage area...nothing more, nothing less. The fact that it is a combination of both channels, also provides that enlarged coverage area with stereo effect, BUT not as ACCURATELY as just the left and right speakers ALONE in their SMALLER COVERAGE AREA!! OK? ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 I hope you are not directing this point to me. Believe me, the mono aspect of the Bell Labs testing was not lost on me. Indeed, the point of my whole argument from square one is how this center speaker actually is a liability if you have a properly set up stereo system. I will admit, you were not making this distinction too clearly in your earlier posts which did confuse the issues for others. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted June 28, 2002 Author Share Posted June 28, 2002 "The Bell Telephone Laboratories used three speakers, the center either in an electrically independent channel or bridged across two stereo channels." Was PWK mistaken about this? It is directly from the 8 Card. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 MH, No...not directed at you...just trying to tie up some loose ends on this subject. Dave, PWK adopted the Bell Labs experiment and ADAPTED it to stereo effect....BUT... The three-speaker array is ALL ABOUT ENLARGING THE ROOM COVERAGE with PRIMARY soundwaves, NOT reflected soundwaves....AND... The fact that it is so readily adaptable to stereo is a major PLUS....BUT... The fact that the center channel is not a channel that stands on its own, BUT instead is a combination of BOTH left and right channels (in the standard stereo format) causes its own portion of the coverage to in effect be a mono coverage...BUT... Its mono coverage still blends to either side of its centerline of fire to, in effect, provide an extended AREA of stereo coverage. SO....even though the center channel is not truly stereo, it still works like stereo to provide that extra bit of coverage....BUT... If one uses just the left and right speakers, the coverage is smaller than the three speaker array, but TRUER to stereo imaging, since it isn't EVER SO SLIGHTLY muddied by the addition of the center "mono-blend" channel. I hope this makes more sense now. ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted June 28, 2002 Author Share Posted June 28, 2002 Yes, I understood what you were saying and was not debating that. It appeared that you and MH were stating that the Bell Labs experiments used only mono sources, and that PWK's statement referred to the same research as being done with stereo sources. That confused me, as one doesn't need to do and experiment to determine that more mono speakers means more sound from more places, but staging certainly would be improved since there isn't any. BTW, my staging is vastly improved with the Cornwall. It may well be that the "muddying" you mention as a flaw in the center channel application is reduced by having a less efficient speaker than the left and right mains. I don't have a sensitivity spec for La Scalla or Belle. Could you refresh my memory? While not disputing anything you've said, I would maintain that PWK states clearly in both marketing and in his engineering papers that "Ability to localize the virtual (reproduced) sound sources in their original spatial relationships requires 3 widely spaced speakers, regardless of size or type..." From a 1972 Klipsch brochure. Those words simply are not subject to interpretation. Please understand that I realize both from my own experience and that of myriad audiophiles that the above does not hold true outside the Klipsch universe. I've done a pretty poor job of attempting to state clearly that it is my belief that PWK was referring to Klipschorns specifically, due to their imaging weakness in any but ideal rooms. To state that he was doing so would have pointed out this weakness, something a pure scientist might do but not something a scientist who also made his living selling his product would do. Am I making any sense here? Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted June 28, 2002 Author Share Posted June 28, 2002 Damn, my writing is not getting any better... Next to last sentence should read "To state that he was doing so would have pointed out this weakness, something a pure scientist might do but not something a scientist who also made his living selling his product would NOT do." I'd be a POOR engineer. :-> Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 Some good follow-ups. I think the point is clearer now. As for the sensitivity, the Cornwall is nearing 98.5dB at 4 ft or close to 100db @ 1 meter. There is a bit of debate here on this as the site says 98.5 @1 meter while other have said the measured at 4 feet. The LaScalas/Belles I believe, are about 104dB or so. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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