How far from a Klipsch type horn can I possibly get?

[Rudy81]

Through various configurations I was able to confirm that if I use the smaller wings and close the top of the wing area with a horizontal board, I can get the bass response to closely match the response I obtained with the larger (twice the size) wings. In this configuration the whole thing acts more like a horn, although without any particular flare...just a 38" radius. However, above 250Hz, the performance is not nearly as good as that of the large wings.

[Rudy81]

Although I'm not interested in performance above 250Hz for my mains, it is not worth building new wings just to same on some real estate. I am fortunate enough to have plenty of room . However, if anyone is interested in a similar setup, I think you can make some smaller wings and play with their setup to get very similar bass performance as the larger wings.

I know Bert is working on improving his design so we will have to wait and see what he comes up with.

This is the small wing sample I was working with.

[DrWho]

what was your sweep length and window size for these plots?

[Rudy81]

Sweep from 30Hz to 1kHz. Window was default for REW IIRC is 125-500 or something like that. No smoothing or other modification. All plots are totally raw.

[Arash]

I hope this is not off-topic, what is the geometry of Oris horn? is that a Tractrix or what?

actually I'm building a special lathe to turn horns up to 100cm in diameter, I want wondering what if build my own Oris with MDF or wood

[Rudy81]

I hope this is not off-topic, what is the geometry of Oris horn? is that a Tractrix or what?

actually I'm building a special lathe to turn horns up to 100cm in diameter, I want wondering what if build my own Oris with MDF or wood

IIRC, the Oris horns are a combination of horn flares. I had inquired into this a while back, but no longer recall what I found out. Your best bet is to contact Bert, the designer and builder, and ask him. He might tell you, but since he still builds and sell his product, he might not be too eager to share his formula.

You will certainly need some precision equipment to build such horns. I built a set of spherical tractrix horns by hand and it was quite a challenge. What that project did do, was solidify my desire to own spherical horns vs. the many other types I had tried. The thread on that project is here: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/147077.aspx?PageIndex=1

Those horns, of course, were much smaller and designed for a compression driver. Large horns, like the Oris, built for 8" drivers are a whole other headache.

Several others have tried what you are attempting and I'm sure will vouch for the difficulty in the project. Having been down that road, I would suggest you are better off just ordering a set from Bert. Although, the project is interesting and there is always the enjoyment of a new build.

Be careful with MDF, that is one nasty product as far as dust and airborne particles. Wear a good mask and eye protection...save your lungs!

Good luck.

[moray james]

building a mold would be far easier more accurate and far less expensive not to mention safer. A CAD router would be safer but still costly, I can't think of anything much more dangerous than a large lathe. Do take a look at someone else who built large diametre horns the easy way. I do hope that this may be of interest. Best regards Moray James.

http://www.inlowsound.com/

[Rudy81]

Browse the Azurahorn site as well on how to make them.

[moray james]

Here is someone who is building a large horn with a mold and paper layup, thought you might like to see the progess of someone else doing this. Best regards Moray James.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/232200-started-building-160-hz-paper-horn-6-fullrange.html

[Rudy81]

I hate to renew an old post, but I recently made some changes to this build. In effect, I removed the wave guides and have gone to an open baffle only configuration. The main reason, was the large size of the wings. After 6+ months of living with them, I decided that they are simply too large for such a small gain in performance vis a vis a pure OB. Mind you, this is not a small room, 20' wide by 27' deep.

This change all started when I was working on my center channel. During measurements for that OB setup, I really studied the LF performance in the 80-280Hz range that I am using. My Eminence Kappalites have a large X-max and even at their loudest, they barely move in my baffle. I realized I could use my Ashly XO to create a low shelf from 20-80Hz for 6dB and obtain the same results I was getting with the massive wings.

I did some test runs and found that the pure OB performance was more than satisfactory. I have now re-invented the wheel and gone to a pure OB configuration. Performance is excellent and my measurements show no loss of the range I need with EQ. Since my dual RSW-15s run from 20-80Hz I can run the open baffles on the LF no problem.

I like the space I have regained in my media room.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Rudy81

[CECAA850]

Stupid question.

What happens to the back wave from the driver in an open baffle configuration? I would think it would have to be absorbed by something somehow as to not bounce back into the room.

[Rudy81]

Stupid question.

What happens to the back wave from the driver in an open baffle configuration? I would think it would have to be absorbed by something somehow as to not bounce back into the room.

Actually, that is a very valid question. The back wave, from what I have learned, should not be absorbed since it will change the interaction at the null between the back and front lobes. There is a whole section of audio science on this issue....very interesting and at times way over my head. Amazingly, it works just fine and sounds very good.

For example, my center channel sounds very good. Great intelligibility, excellent clarity and a 'big' sound. Had I never stumbled on to this concept, I never would have believed it.

If you are interested in diving into the deep end of the open baffle pool, check out Mr. Linkwitz site: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/

Edited December 27, 2013 by Rudy81

[CECAA850]

Thanks Rudy.

[Ski Bum]

Hey Rudy, have you ever thought of trying a slot loaded open baffle/ripole type for the bass? It tends to shift the cardiod pattern more to a forward biased cardiod, and would look really cool under those Oris horns. See here for comparison to open baffle and box/direct radiators.

[joessportster]

I've had 3 different versions of berts horns, the 150, the 200, and the orphean, and i forget just how many bass and mid bass cabinets i experimented with, i do know though the best overall system was pared with an edgarhorn midbass folded horn and siesmic subs to fill in the bottom The oris is an awesome set-up Ive heard them in small to huge rooms and they always seemed to integrate with no issues

Joe

[ClaudeJ1]

If you are running open baffle, you may want to try different woofers.

Open baffle drivers typically have a high qts. .6 and up.

I use the eminence alpha or beta 15 drivers with good success.

Dave

Yes, and they are cheap, too.

[ClaudeJ1]

Although I'm not interested in performance above 250Hz for my mains, it is not worth building new wings just to same on some real estate. I am fortunate enough to have plenty of room . However, if anyone is interested in a similar setup, I think you can make some smaller wings and play with their setup to get very similar bass performance as the larger wings.

I know Bert is working on improving his design so we will have to wait and see what he comes up with.

This is the small wing sample I was working with.

It's starting to look like a Voice of the Theater woofer section, minus the bass reflex, of course.

[ClaudeJ1]

I hate to renew an old post, but I recently made some changes to this build. In effect, I removed the wave guides and have gone to an open baffle only configuration. The main reason, was the large size of the wings. After 6+ months of living with them, I decided that they are simply too large for such a small gain in performance vis a vis a pure OB. Mind you, this is not a small room, 20' wide by 27' deep.

This change all started when I was working on my center channel. During measurements for that OB setup, I really studied the LF performance in the 80-280Hz range that I am using. My Eminence Kappalites have a large X-max and even at their loudest, they barely move in my baffle. I realized I could use my Ashly XO to create a low shelf from 20-80Hz for 6dB and obtain the same results I was getting with the massive wings.

I did some test runs and found that the pure OB performance was more than satisfactory. I have now re-invented the wheel and gone to a pure OB configuration. Performance is excellent and my measurements show no loss of the range I need with EQ. Since my dual RSW-15s run from 20-80Hz I can run the open baffles on the LF no problem.

I like the space I have regained in my media room.

I helped a friend build and set up his OB system based on Martin King data. I'm amazed at the 3 dimensional depth and the BASS response.....super detailed. His is a 3-way with AMT tweeters and a 4" Fostex mid. He plans on going full D'Apoolition configuration in the future with 2 woofers per side, two 8" mids, and the same tweeter. The speakers simply "dissapear" and the sound comes from 10 ft behind the speaker in a virtual hologram. It is totally amazing.

[Rudy81]

ClaudeJ1,

I'm still in the evaluation stage and continue to be very impressed.

As far as my center channel, the OB set up has been a total success. My DIY center 'horn' is now enjoying a vacation in the city dump. So, the center channel issue is now solved and the OB solution, although unexpected, was right on.

I want to spend some more time doing critical listening to two channel. However, the setup in two channel is only slightly different in that the wings are gone.....just a pure OB remains. XO frequency went up a little but I have not noticed any problems or holes in response.

I really need to delve more deeply into the OB concept, particularly when it comes to room absorption, diffraction and reflection.

[Rudy81]

Time to update this post due to some new information and testing of various open baffle designs.

I have been hunting around for an OB design that could go lower than the pure OBs I have been using. The last two days, after much reading on the subject, I decided to try various frame layouts in OB flavor. I built and tested a V-frame, M-frame and the Linkwitz W-frame woofer. They all use two woofers in a push-pull configuration. The Linkwitz build had the best bass performance and the big advantage of virtually no frame vibration due to the driver cancellation. However, there is never a free lunch.

Although each design had a better bass response, it was always at the cost of problems further up the frequency scale.

In the end, I found that the plain old open baffle works best in overall performance with virtually no artifacts. I found that if I added a low shelf to my open baffle of +5db from 80Hz down, I could get a flat response to 35Hz. The drivers have an Fs of 41Hz, so I set my new XO at 40hz.

Now I have the RSW-15s covering only 20-40Hz for any very low information. I have both Right and Left subs working in unison for the R, L and C channels. The open baffles cover 40-201Hz for the L & R and the center gets crossed a little higher since it does not have a horn (40-270Hz)

I was able to get good full range response 'in room'.

I am thrilled a having the majority of the listening frequency spectrum in just the Oris and open baffles.

Finished the changes to the system and listened to a few songs. So far so good. I won't have time for any critical listening until next week....but so far I am optimistic with these changes.

BTW, the Eminence Kappalites are performing extremely well even with their low Qts. For OB designs, they suggest high QTS to achieve bass performance. The Kappalites are working very well.