what is a Jubilee?

[RRFL]

Quit beating around the bush, go big and never wonder again.

I second that.

Motion carried

Build MWM + KPT-402

[H]

[RRFL]

No I have never heard of that, had no idea.

btw, have you seen the Klipsch documentation on having MWMs facing the floor but raised up off the floor about six or eight inches? You could place them flat against the back wall (making a shallow footprint).

This will be the same principle as the Tuba HT LP placed in the corner against one wall with the mouth facing the other wall 18 - 24 inches away from the wall. The corner gives 12db gain with flattening and extension of the response.in the low end the band width is 15 - 100hz

With the MWM band width is 35 - 500hz and I would anticipate loading the mouth toward the floor or the wall could improve the low end of the band but may be detrimental to the top end.

I have considered this with the LaScala and using an active xover so it can be aligned properly.

[RRFL]

The Jubilee bass bins are approx. $7000 a pair in the U.S. Plans aren't exactly available, since this a newer Klipsch production speaker. They use two 12" woofers per cabinet instead of a single 15". Although easier in some ways to build than a Khorn, they are rather complex. A few clones and homebuilts have shown up, but most are hesitant to show drawings as, again, they are a current model Klipsch and the company has been so helpful and tolerant of the DIY crowd here.

I think the $7,000 figure is for complete Jubilees, bass bins with two 12" drivers per cabinet, plus two K402 horns with K-69A drivers, and includes stands for the K402 horns. The K402s with drivers and stands are around $2000 for a pair.

Last time I checked, that $7,000 price included delivery, so it's a pretty good deal.

As you may know, Jubilees come without crossovers, and are meant to be bi-amped and have active electronic crossovers feeding a matching pair of stereo power amps. They're a factory-tested combo and come with the lab-tested crossover settings, so you will actually know the complete system is performing as designed.

With home-builts, they may sound pretty good, but it's hard to know if they're really performing to their potential, since you probably don't have the testing equipment, skills and knowledge of Roy Delgado, who designed and calibrated the Jubilees, in a team with PWK. Also, I don't believe La Scalas, ported or not, with have the low bass extension of Jubilees.

The La Scala bass horns are a simple conical horn from the Seventies, while the Jubilee bass bins are a much later and better design that has lower distortion and bigger sound.

rigma is very happy with his homebuilt Jubilees bass bins, and they really are things of beauty, but after seeing the time and expense it took to build them, he bought his second pair from Klipsch, rather than building another pair himself.

The JubScalas are less expensive and smaller than Jubilees, and are said to provide about 90% of the sound quality of Jubilees. I haven't heard Jubilees myself, but I've read this on the forum a few times. If my budget ever permits, I'll likely order a pair of Jubilees, for the improved sound, plus I already have the matching amps and the EV Dx38 digital processor.

"ditto that"

[RRFL]

is anyone kind enuff to take a look at Beyma products to see if any of their 12" woofs is good to use in Jubilee?

I suggest you have 3 options.

Build Belle or LaScala. The Belle are less complex to build and the KPT-510/K69 is an ideal HF unit.

Buy Jubilee

Build MWM

All can be fitted with the KPT-402 or the KPT-510

Use the recommended drivers and don't mess with what works extremely well and enjoy the music.

for extended low bandwidth Build one Tuba HT LP in 24" width with either of the recommended Dayton 15" drivers.

[Arash]

a stupid questions:

what would happen in case we make a n% bigger Jubilee (10cm bigger woofer house) to be able to fit a 15" driver? we can make center woofer house 3.2" wider to fit the CW1526 and leave all of other dimensions as standard Jubilee draws. it would lead to a 3.2 inch wider Jubilee. that's it

[Marvel]

a stupid questions:

Partly right, it is a question. The Jubilee cabinet uses two 12 inch drivers. The whole cabinet dimensions would have to change, increasing just the woofer chamber would then narrow the path in a bad way for the rest of the cab.

Have you seen the drawings of the Jubilee bin to understand what you are thinking?

Bruce

[RRFL]

a stupid questions:

what would happen in case we make a n% bigger Jubilee (10cm bigger woofer house) to be able to fit a 15" driver? we can make center woofer house 3.2" wider to fit the CW1526 and leave all of other dimensions as standard Jubilee draws. it would lead to a 3.2 inch wider Jubilee. that's it

It would loose the jubilee concept of a folded horn of small dimension.

When placed in a corner the Jubilee intrudes less into the room than a LaScala.

It is intended to be as compact as possible.

There is no point messing with the design as the designer is off the scale in this area of expertise.

[Carl_Huff]

I have been building and measuring the classic Klipsch La Scala cabinets using Crites drivers in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1458686/la-seos/0_100

It's a good sounding punchy box but you will need a subwoofer even if you port the cabinet.

[Islander]

a stupid questions:

what would happen in case we make a n% bigger Jubilee (10cm bigger woofer house) to be able to fit a 15" driver? we can make center woofer house 3.2" wider to fit the CW1526 and leave all of other dimensions as standard Jubilee draws. it would lead to a 3.2 inch wider Jubilee. that's it

You're kind of missing the point of the Jubilee. When designing the Jubilee (which was originally meant to be the Klipschorn II), PWK and Roy decided to go with two 12" woofers instead of one 15" woofer as used in the Klipschorn, in order to get better transient response and lower distortion. They were so impressed with the results (for other reasons as well, including the Jubilee bass horn design) that they gave the speaker a whole new name, the Jubilee.

It's not likely that an oversized replica of the Jubilee bass bin would even work as well as the original. The odds of it sounding better are slimmer still.

Someone (not at Klipsch) built a speaker sort of like that, called the Jubilation, but very few have been built, which suggests that it's not the improvement over the Jubilee that it was hoped to be. The Jubilee is not magically perfect, but it is very good, and whipping up something of a similar shape at home may produce a nice-looking box, but not a better speaker.

[moray james]

The other goal of the Jub was to make a two way design as PWK had always wanted the Khorn to be. The problem lies in gettig the bass horn to go high enough to reach a domestic size horn. I should think that the Jub is a pretty well tweaked design. I would be more inclined to take a very close look at DJK's PPSL LaScala design that would be very much of interest to me and fewer bends than a Jub but a less domestic cabinet as a LaScala (only one 90 degree fold)can't be fit as well into a corner. Fewer bends is to me a major factor with fewer equaling better in my book. You won't be the first to design your own but you are on your own as far as results go far less likely to better Roy and Paul.There is also the DDB to consider and this has been built as a corner cabinet. I would personally bemore interested in that than in a multi fold bass horn.Attached is a horn design very much like a Belle it is a drawing for a Peavey FH-1 which is very similar to a LaScals with one 90 degree bend if we don't count the throat itself. Excellent between 80Hz and 450 Hz. About as vompact as you are going to get. I like this build a lot more than the Lascala. Hoe this may be of interest. Best regards Moray James.

[seti]

a stupid questions:

what would happen in case we make a n% bigger Jubilee (10cm bigger woofer house) to be able to fit a 15" driver? we can make center woofer house 3.2" wider to fit the CW1526 and leave all of other dimensions as standard Jubilee draws. it would lead to a 3.2 inch wider Jubilee. that's it

You're kind of missing the point of the Jubilee. When designing the Jubilee (which was originally meant to be the Klipschorn II), PWK and Roy decided to go with two 12" woofers instead of one 15" woofer as used in the Klipschorn, in order to get better transient response and lower distortion. They were so impressed with the results (for other reasons as well, including the Jubilee bass horn design) that they gave the speaker a whole new name, the Jubilee.

It's not likely that an oversized replica of the Jubilee bass bin would even work as well as the original. The odds of it sounding better are slimmer still.

Someone (not at Klipsch) built a speaker sort of like that, called the Jubilation, but very few have been built, which suggests that it's not the improvement over the Jubilee that it was hoped to be. The Jubilee is not magically perfect, but it is very good, and whipping up something of a similar shape at home may produce a nice-looking box, but not a better speaker.

Actually there were plans for Jubilee's of multiple sizes. I saw motor boards for dual 6 or 8 inch drivers. Could you imagine scaled up for dual 15 or 18 inch drivers. Actually
William F. Gil McDermott's build was a Jub's with 15's.

[moray james]

I think that you need to establish what your personal preferences are before you go atempting to design from the ground up a brand new horn. compare a direct radiator to aLaScala which has just one 90 degree bend then to a horn with three bends. Decide which you like. I have found that I woud at most tollerate a single 90 degree bend more then 90 degrees and more bends are simply not what I want to listen to. You may be different but I think it is important to do first because it will clearly show you what designs are in the cards and which are not. Many of the long time high efficiency guys end up with five or more way rigs with straight horns to achieve the quality of sound they are after. It is not a mistake or fad so may of these big and expensive rigs use straight horns to as low a frequence as physically possible. You night also want to take a very good look a DJK's PPSL woofer designs they can better horn in ways and are much more domestic in their size.They are less complex and so les expensive to build when compared to a horn and they are smaller. Ask the guys who now run straight horn down to 60 Hs or so how the straight horns compare to previous folded designs. There are a number of guys on theis forum who can answer these questions. Take a look at John Inlow's site he is now running straight horns. http://www.inlowsound.com/ I am sure there are others Claude at theis forum has been looking to build a 80Hz (I think) straight horn. Rudy has aninteresting open baffle horn set up check out his thread for his home theater rig. Hope this helps and is of interest. Best regards Moray James.

[Axz Hout]

y

[WMcD]

a stupid questions:

what would happen in case we make a n% bigger Jubilee (10cm bigger woofer house) to be able to fit a 15" driver? we can make center woofer house 3.2" wider to fit the CW1526 and leave all of other dimensions as standard Jubilee draws. it would lead to a 3.2 inch wider Jubilee. that's it

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/72517.aspx?PageIndex=1

[Daddy Dee]

Gil,

I'd forgotten about The Caves of Arne Saknussemm.

Needed a smile tonight. Thanks.

[moray james]

Journey to the centre of the stereo.

[Boxx]

what is a Jubilee?

Something that I may never have.... However, (when I retire), I may decided to try to DYI in my garage... It's on the list somewhere... lol...

[WMcD]

Maybe Moray James has more information than I do. I've only studied the AES article, and made some educated inferences.

It looks to me that PWK and Roy had the goal of duplicating the footprint and height of the K-Horn. They accomplished that from what I see.

The drawing of the prototype shown in the AES article appears to show a 15 inch driver. If the overall design was like the Jubilee, there were two 15 inch drivers. [Edit: I looked at the article again and now believe the drawing for the prototype shows a 12 inch woofer, of course there would be two.]

It is interesting to ponder on why any dual bass driver system was not developed in the early days. There is an article someplace by PWK generally describing the selection of the woofer driver. Apparently the cost of 15 inch woofers in the late '40's and early '50's was about $100. That must be about $500 in today's money. Using two would be a deal breaker.

The use of multiple drivers allows the corner horn to have less complicated path - a complicated path is lossy to treble.

Reading the AES article it seems that the prototype (who knows if there were several) had mouths up against the walls of the room like the K-Horn. They wanted to change the design to have the mouths aimed more forward and more closely placed. This should direct treble freqs more on axis and move some combing effects. But, in my view, this required the front board to be more narrow. So the only thing to do was to use drivers of a smaller diameter. [Edit again. Per the edit above, I now believe it is a 12 inch in the drawing of the prototype -- the drawing does not show the second 12 inch driver but it must be in the design].

This, though, also required an increase flare rate in the first section. This had been used in early K-Horns -- the so-called rubber throat.

We see some indications that the Jubilee has better distortion characteristics than the K-Horn. Maybe it is because of the rubber throat. But the K-Horn and other Klipsch designs (Belle and LS) has the 3x13 restrictor plate. This is not used in the Jubilee or MCM or LB. My suspicion is that the plate is the source of some distortion.

The restrictor plate has long been a source of questions. I've stated that it might be there to allow the formation of a resonant chamber in front of the diaphragm to counteract the mass roll off of the driver.

I'll say that the Jubilee is an optimized design for the K-Horn footprint and height, with two drivers. There is no reason to think that some varients can not achieve at least equal results.

WMcD

[Daddy Dee]

Gil,

Thanks for your take. some interesting stuff here.

one question, the Jubilee doesn't use a restrictor plate? I haven't paid enough attention to what drawings I've seen.

the 'rubber-throat' is a term not on my radar before. could you say more about that. i don't think i'm understanding enough to ask an intelligent question about that.

your take on the Jubilee design objectives sounds right to me. rings true with the idea that Mr. Paul and Roy were working on an anniversary Khorn project in the beginning. I've heard Roy say that when they realized that the Jubilee was something substantially more than a Khorn they would not call it a Khorn. Part of Mr. Paul's concern sounded to me like he didn't want loyal Khorn owners to sense that Klipsch had left them behind with the new Khorn. The Jubilee would be it's own new branch on the family tree.

that the Jubilee would be of similar size and height as the Khorn really makes sense in that context of development. Also the design goal of not requiring corner placement is a real plus, imo.

another thing you mentioned about there possibly being other prototypes sounds right to me. something i read from Roy sounded like that. my impression is that Roy would send plans to be built and then Mr. Paul would ask him what he thought. When he indicated that the cab (which ended up as the Jub cab) turned out just right, that sounded like there had been some earlier bass bin builds that were considered unsatisfactory.

[Speakmeister]

This should direct treble freqs more on axis and move some combing effects. But, in my view, this required the front board to be more narrow. So the only thing to do was to use drivers of a smaller diameter.

Gil, I agree with this statement, the other more important factor for the 12" drivers over the 15" is it allows a smaller splay angle so the wave front is much more direct in the jubilee than the klispchorn.