Max2 Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Sounds like that avr is not delivering the goods. Amen. The 1513 is a $99.00 dollar new AVR refurb with a full warranty. Im sure its not liking the 4 ohm rated 94db Kg4 anyway. Don't get me wrong, Im a really big Denon fan, but Im thinking that new unit maybe really thin. Start your replacement research here. http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/category/avreceiver/home-audio/home-theater-receivers/1.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 (edited) Yea, the bass was all the way up +6 and treble +2 Then I took my Denon AVR-E300 from upstairs and plugged it in down here. It delivers a little more power than the AVR, so i'm thinking I need to return the 1513 and get something else. Did you use a tone control when you set the bass for +6? Don't use virtual onscreen sliders, or they will turn Audyssey off. Make sure the Audyssey light is still on when you have finished all adjustments. Audyssey and other auto-EQs try to remove room peaks, and many people get used to peaky bass, and value it. IMO, the solution is to replace the peaky bass with a gradual, but smooth, bass rise, so that the bottom end of the curve is higher than the top. Some research (Harmon?) has indicated that most people like the bottom of the bass to be 10 dB higher than the top of the treble, and they perceive it as "flat," even though it's not. I achieved that here by running Audyssey, then turning up the sub by a few dB, and also using a tone control (not a virtual slider) to boost the LF and RF bass by 6 dB. As far as the plane landing, etc., if you decide to use a "sub out" to feed a sub, a great deal of the energy of the plane landing will, as LFE, be sent directly to the sub, and the power -- or the lack of it -- from your AVR won't be a factor. The 1513 doesn't have audyseey feature. It didn't come with the microphone Could this be the issue? AVR-1513Power Output; Watts Per Channel 75AVR-E300Power Output 75 W (20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% THD @ 8 ohms) per channel120 W (1 kHz, 0.7% THD @ 6 ohms) per channel 175 W (max power output) per channel Doesn't the AVR 1513 have any power specs that specify 20 Hz to 20KHz @ some reasonable THD level (like the 0,08% listed for the AVR-E300)? You need to be able to make a direct comparison. The other two power specs (@1K and the one called "max power out") aren't very useful. The specs for other units you mentioned in a later post aren't very impressive either. Power at 1K is easy. Paul W. Klipsch used to say to pay attention to the power spec at 30 Hz. When manufacturers aren't fudging around, they refer to power per channel with all channels operating (to properly stress the power supply), and at a known frequency range (e.g. 20 to 20K), at a specified distortion level (e.g. 0.08% THD). Reviews of the various Denons may be the only place you will find power ratings that can be directly compared. You mentioned the possibility of returning the 1513. Did you get it from a local dealer or online? If you have a local dealer, put it to her/him ... ask if more power would help, and ask why you get better results with your old unit. I agree with Max 2 Edited March 30, 2014 by Garyrc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eanderson Posted March 30, 2014 Author Share Posted March 30, 2014 Thanks for the help everyone. I've bought both my receivers from accessories for less, I figured for my simple setup in the basement I didn't need anything crazy. My problem is, i'm a data guy and really have limited knowledge on these new amps. Do you have any suggestions as to what will be better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Thanks for the help everyone. I've bought both my receivers from accessories for less, I figured for my simple setup in the basement I didn't need anything crazy. My problem is, i'm a data guy and really have limited knowledge on these new amps. Do you have any suggestions as to what will be better? The 1513 would fair better with just about any Klipsch speaker other than the KG4's. They are a 4 ohm speaker and on top of that, they are less efficient than most of the Klipsch line. (94db) This will stress all entry level AVR's. I would get the most power I was willing to spend on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eanderson Posted March 30, 2014 Author Share Posted March 30, 2014 Am I correct in saying that the 7.1 amps deliver more power than the 5.1? Can you show me an example? I'd like to keep it under $300 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 I recently helped switch an old sony similar to yours which never sounded right to a new (recently discontinued) Yamaha. There is a big improvement. The Yamaha comes with a mic for setting the levels automatically. This person uses a sub in the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 (edited) Am I correct in saying that the 7.1 amps deliver more power than the 5.1? Can you show me an example? I'd like to keep it under $300 The 7.1s may actually deliver less power in watts to each speaker ... it depends on what corners the manufacturers have cut to keep the price low. Look at more expensive AVRs made by the better manufacturers online (including Denon, but also NAD, Marantz, etc.), and look for models that can tolerate 4 Ohm nominal impedence, and have at least 100 watts (more if possible) from each channel, with all channels operating at once, with a low distortion level (0.1% or below), 20 to 20,000 Hz. Also look up magazine reviews (e.g., in Home Theater magazine) and online reviews by people equipped to test. Skip any AVR for which you cannot get the above data, either from online manufacturer's specs, or from magazine reviews. Edited March 30, 2014 by Garyrc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eanderson Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 so the denon AVR-E300 specs deliver 175 watts max per channel, however I can't find anything that shows a distortion level at .1 or below. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 stop looking at max power. those numbers are so inflated and at such strict parameters. you need to mainly look for a receiver that can handle a 4 ohm load well. any klipsch is easy to drive. when you set them as large that makes it harder. when they are 4 ohm even harder again. i would also look into something with a room eq as they can help a lot. i have a denon 1713 (new model is x1000) and it drives my rf-63 home theater just fine. now more efficient, 8ohm, and i run them small and have a couple subs. maybe you should think about getting a sub? you could go with a lower power receiver if you were only running them as small crossed at say 70-80 as they wouldn't be pulling near the juice. and I'm sure a good 12 inch sub would give you the slam airplane flying over your head you had before Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 so the denon AVR-E300 specs deliver 175 watts max per channel, however I can't find anything that shows a distortion level at .1 or below. A different direction would be sell the KG's to a friend, keep your 1513 and take that additional money and apply them to a set of Forte's or Chorus. This makes the most sense and in the long run I know you would be glad you did it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 stop looking at max power. those numbers are so inflated Absolutely true! The key word is "max." The term "maximum power" is meaningless. If possible, save up your money and get something that provides 100 watts RMS out of each channel with all channels operating, and that is good with 4 Ohm speakers. Years ago, the Fedral Trade Commission stopped amp manufactures from using outrageousy inflated wattage ratings. In those days companies used terms such as "Music Power." They had to stop. The manufacturers (almost all of them) have found ways around that, and their noses are growing again. Time for the FTC to stage a return visit. Try NAD? Local dealers (not big box stores) used to provid good advice on real power ratings, as opposed to the ones you have been running across. Now that there are so few showrooms, the mice will play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eanderson Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) so the denon AVR-E300 specs deliver 175 watts max per channel, however I can't find anything that shows a distortion level at .1 or below. A different direction would be sell the KG's to a friend, keep your 1513 and take that additional money and apply them to a set of Forte's or Chorus. This makes the most sense and in the long run I know you would be glad you did it. I could never sell the K04's they have sentimental value . However it's looking more and more likely that I will have to go the powered sub route. I just can't believe I cannot find an amp that will power these K04's. It's gotten to the point that I would do just about anything for a modern amp with HDMI switching that could properly push these K04's! Again, thank you everyone for your help and patience. I never thought finding a proper amp would be so difficult. I'd be happy to pay for an amplifier that would do what I needed. The problem i'm finding is that it doesn't exist anymore Edited March 31, 2014 by eanderson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 so the denon AVR-E300 specs deliver 175 watts max per channel, however I can't find anything that shows a distortion level at .1 or below. A different direction would be sell the KG's to a friend, keep your 1513 and take that additional money and apply them to a set of Forte's or Chorus. This makes the most sense and in the long run I know you would be glad you did it. I could never sell the K04's they have sentimental value . However it's looking more and more likely that I will have to go the powered sub route. I just can't believe I cannot find an amp that will power these K04's. It's gotten to the point that I would do just about anything for a modern amp with HDMI switching that could properly push these K04's! Again, thank you everyone for your help and patience. I never thought finding a proper amp would be so difficult. I'd be happy to pay for an amplifier that would do what I needed. The problem i'm finding is that it doesn't exist anymore There are plenty of AVR's that will push the KG's, but finding a new one that will do it for $300 its a little harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I never thought finding a proper amp would be so difficult. I'd be happy to pay for an amplifier that would do what I needed. The problem i'm finding is that it doesn't exist anymore If you can afford about $4,000 + +, there should be some on the NAD website. To make sure you can boost the mid bass if needed, get one with tone controls (as opposed to virtual sliders that will turn Audyssey off if you use them). If you spend that much, do get Audyssey. The best at the moment is Audyssey XT32, but, IMO, Audyssey XT is O.K. It's fun spending other people's money! Go ahead and get a good subwoofer ... that way, you can boost the low bass (below 80 Hz) as much as you want (within reason). Can you then put your K04s in the rear, look at them every once in a while for sentimental reasons , and get some Klipsch Fortes or Forte IIs for the front? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eanderson Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) In the end, if I need to spend a little more to get what I want then so be it. If you have an example of what will work please send me a link! 4,000 is INSANE how about under 500? Is it possible to run an amp between the denon and the 2 K04's? Edited March 31, 2014 by eanderson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) Is it possible to run an amp between the denon and the 2 K04's? Yes, if the Denon has enough available pre-outs, and if there is a way to adjust the balance with the rest of the speakers (usually trims in the AVR, but I don't know your Denon). In fact, if you think the pre-amp section of your AVR is good, and it is just that the amp sections of your AVR doesn't like the 4 Ohm nominal rating of your speakers, and your amp sections have fudged power ratings (i.e., have inadequate power output, compared to what you thought was there), you might consider several separate power amps, either 2 or 3 good 2 channel power amps (new or second hand with testing and warranty), or one 5 to 7 channel one. Be careful, though; multi channel power amps sometimes are rated with just two channels running, which will result in an overestimation of the power. Naturally, your AVR needs to have the right number of pre-outs to make this work. Use the best sounding amps on the LF, C, RF. Be sure to get a good, powered sub. My own Home Theater system has incredible bass authority. I use three two channel power amplifiers (see them listed in my signature space below). I believe I paid $499 new for each of NAD C272s in 2005. If I were to sell them used, they might bring 1/4 to 1/2 that, so such a find might be what you need (no way am I selling mine!) As I remember, each of the NADs was rated at both 4 or 8 Ohms, 150 wts/channel, both channels operating. Their rating method was comparable to the legitimate industry standard, but I consider them to be good solid 120 watt/channel amps, because my dealer's engineer measured the top of the sine wave, just before clipping, at 171 watts each, both channels operating, and to convert to what is nicknamed RMS power, one multiplies by .707, which gave me 120 watts/channel. Do you have a knowledgeable dealer who can help you? Edited March 31, 2014 by Garyrc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 If your new receiver has all the features you want, get an external amp and call it a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sancho Panza Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 That particular Denon does NOT have pre-outs, except for 1, for the SW; iIrc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eanderson Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 That particular Denon does NOT have pre-outs, except for 1, for the SW; iIrc. Correct. I think i'm going to ditch the K04's and go with a sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sancho Panza Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Could set the kg4 to Small, Crossover @ 80 & use the SW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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