Is there such a thing as a "black quiet" amp?

[eth2]

Thanks, Mark,

Please tell me where to send the tuition check. Great explanation!

[Schu]

I don't think you need to have one or the other... I think you can have moderate doses of both.

A measure of blackness DOES help musicality and definition by not cluttering up passages with distortion or other extraneous signal.

[joessportster]

The original poster asked if there is a "black quiet" amp. The answer to that exact question is NO. What each individual can actually "hear" is very subjective.

Subjective Definition

adjective

1. 1.

   based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

Its not subjective at all, there is no decision to be made at all, you either hear it or you don't.

Now with that said your hearing may be better than mine or worse therefore what one hears someone else may not, and it all depends on AMP DESIGN

[Thaddeus Smith]

You state that you either hear it or you don't. If the amp doesn't change, but amongst multiple listeners noise perception does - how is that at all related to amp design?

I'm turning into Mark.

[eth2]

Thanks, Mark,

Please tell me where to send the tuition check. Great explanation!

Ha ha....it's all good Earl.

Your Peach is almost out of surgery and into the recovery room. She's doing fine.

Mark

Do you accept Blue Cross/Blue Shield?

Earl

[JL Sargent]

Oh funny. Reaching for the dictionary? Subjective - 2 . Particular to a given person; personal.

Exactly what I meant. For each person it's different.

Now is there a "black quiet" amp? NO.

Mark explained it so well.

[joessportster]

Oh funny. Reaching for the dictionary? Subjective - 2 . Particular to a given person; personal.

Exactly what I meant. For each person it's different.

Now is there a "black quiet" amp? NO.

Mark explained it so well.

you and mark are discussing physics and I understand completely that theoretically NOTHING can be absolutely silent. However again I say that FROM A LISTENING POSITION it is quite possible to have a silent amp

that silence is decided by a few factors, design, synergy, efficiency. ETC...

"You state that you either hear it or you don't. If the amp doesn't change, but amongst multiple listeners noise perception does - how is that at all related to amp design?"

One persons hearing being better or not has nothing to do with amp design, It is a simple fact that some designs are better than others when it comes to how high or low the noise floor is. My point is it is VERY POSSIBLE to have a silent amp at the LISTENING POSITION. No more no less

This has nothing to do with sticking ones ear or head against a driver to hear minor noises

FUN DEBATE, ME LIKES

[mike stehr]

Sometimes the hiss from the source recording is even worse the hiss from the amplifier itself. Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" comes to mind...

[thebes]

Is there such a thing as a "black quiet" amp?

===============

If the words "black quiet" mean no noise, the answer is no. Even the background of the universe is not "black quiet."

When electric current flows, there are several kinds of noise generated. Shot noise, thermionic noise, Johnson noise and so on. Naturally, this noise varies by device type and implementations and design. In addition to noise generated within a device there is noise that can come from the outside of a system like an amplifier and become part of the output.

In audio gears we have some standardized measurements to describe the noise. The most common is the ratio between the noise and the signal. A figure like "90dB S/N" means the signal voltage is 32,000 times greater than the noise voltage. 80dB would be 10,000 times greater than the noise.

As devices progressed from vacuum tubes to transistors to FETs to OpAmps noise has gone down. Where 75dB was once typical, low current OpAmps can achieve 110dB or maybe even better today.

Like most specs, there is a diminishing meaning to them. If music is playing can you hear distributed noise that is 1/32000? 1/10000? How far then is it important to reduce noise, when you consider that doing so will very likely involve other compromises? That's where the hobby comes in. People make choices based on their own set or priorities.

Some people are freaked out when they can hear noise with no music playing. Others are interested in the sound WITH music playing. Everyone has their own preferences. Here's an example of the conflict: I think tube amplifiers have far better sonic qualities than SS amps even though their noise figures are worse than SS amps. Partly because I don't sit around listening to my amps with no music playing, and partly because I am not willing to lose the superb qualities of tubes just for a better noise figure, and partly because I think 78dB SN is in a practical sense good enough to be considered noise free when listening to music. In my list of the Top 10 qualities I want in an amp, noise is not on that list. Others might make it #1.

Klipschorn's being very efficient create a unique issue not found in other speakers. When no music is playing, it is often possible to hear the amplifier's internal noise. When music IS playing, the listener would experience the same SN ratio as with any other speaker - no difference. But when the signal is removed, the speaker might be sensitive enough to register just the noise. My answer? Turn the amp off.

Your new Peach is typical of all tube preamps. The noise on the output of the Peach is dependent on the exact tube you choose for it and the range is pretty wide. Then, whatever that noise is, will be fed into a power amp you choose. This is important to understand: each power amp has a different level of VOLTAGE GAIN. On the low end is a gain of say 10X and on the high end is a gain of say 30X or so. Let's take the output noise WITH NO MUSIC of the Peach tube then into the first amp. It will multiply the noise voltage by 10X and deliver that as output to the speaker. Now put the Peach into the second amp with 30X gain, and you will have 30X the noise voltage at the speaker. All because of the sensitivity (gain) of the power amp.

Now on most other speakers, none of that would be interesting or significant. But with Khorns, the "no music playing mode" can become irritating to people, especially with a high gain power amp.

My opinion ranges this way. If you want absolute silence, turn everything off. If you want the absolute best sounding musical performances coming from your speakers, you will want to carefully investigate all the subjective and qualitative aspects of the amplifier chain that go way beyond simple specifications like SN ratio, distortion, and frequency response.

Yet another reason I love this place, and love it when Mark's tuning in.

[beeker]

I wrote my amp is 100% quiet to eth2. Yes mark has nailed it. I will say and not trying to get everything back to square one. When in use my amps tube and solid state i have quite a few some would be viewed much better than others but i do prefer minimal noise when amp is at idle in particular when no subject material is playing..pause or stop and even cdp whatever playback source is powered off and my amp is on my current 2 channel rig atm is tubed has the most faint bit of noise coming out of it near none between tracks. Only heard barely if your ear is rubbed up against the grille. 5 foot from either side in 2 channel you will hear nothing at all if at idle, between track etc...This took me a lot of tube burning and rolling, adjusting and work to say the least on top of the quality sound out of my tubes in my choice of amp as i prefer being used at any given time solid state or tube with my playback material, possibly yours.This is not with only 1 tube or solid state amp but multiple.

Many times once music is turned up...If there is a hiss or any kind of noise...the noise goes away. I have went multiple extra and then some miles to make so much as to say i have no noise at idle...I restate it now and say my systems which ever i am running...if i am going to demo for a friend let alone use for myself if you hear noise i will not sleep tight till I get it at 99%silent. I invite anybody by off of this forum to take a listen.

Then again pa systems in particular have some noise although with some work this can be minimized. From the studio you should not have noise to my playback setup I aim it to be equal to what was in the studio or better if thats where my playback material came from etc...we are reproducing what was once recorded if were an hour ago on a soundboard or hundred years ago on god bless them what they had to record with then my intentions is to provide minimal noise other than what was recorded...that simple. So no black noise sure but pretty darn close

[DrWho]

I agree with Mark that chasing high SNR numbers is a bit misleading, but.....a low and well behaved noise floor does make a fairly significant difference that is always perceived as better in the subjective listening tests I've been involved with......

Keep in mind that a 30dB SPL noise floor in your room limits your S/N to 60dB if you're listening at a loud 90dB. The important part is making sure your electronics don't add to the bottom.