Rankings - Heritage Speakers

[Sancho Panza]

CF & KLF Series need to be in there; just not sure where?

[moray james]

Part of the problem in evaluating speakers, is when you look at the comments of the speakers listed in the Klipch product pages; EVERY speaker rates a 5 out of 5! That doesn't help!

personal comments are very helpful but as it is with reading reviews one has no real reference unless you make the effort to check out for yourself the gear that is being reviewed. If you choose a single reviewer who has shown to be consistent and honest then you can for yourself figure out where that reviewer is conning from what they like and do not.You compare your review with that of the reviewer and pretty soon you can read between the lines. buying and trying is the way I learned what sounded like what.

I think that you first need to establish your personal preferences to help you focus and make your search easier. Different drivers (sizes) all sound different. Only by listening will you find which you like best be it a ten inch a twelve inch or a fifteen, they all have their qualities. Same thing goes for horns and compression drivers. Matching horns and drivers is easy and hard all at the same time. If you look at a driver like the JBL LE85 and the H92 horn you will see that the horn and driver are totally integrated the horn profile starts at the throat inside the comp driver and is perfect in its flair rate. Finding other modern drivers with exits that match horn entrances angle for angle will take time. Parts that match well will sound good. Not all companies match up drivers to horns this well and they don't match all their parts either so you can't assume that any JBL driver and horn are a perfect match just because they fit together. That's where forums can help. The Lansing Heritage forum is an excellent source of specific information. You can ask manufacturers what the comp drivers exit angle is and then ask manufacturers what the horn entrance angle is you won't often get answers but you will sometimes. Users with expertise can help you when companies can't. You will have to listen to various comp driver diaphragms but you can be safe that the order of performance and bandwidth is phenolic,titanium aluminum and best by a mile the Beryllium. If top quality aluminum diaphragms were available for Klipsch Heritage and Extended (Quartet Forte and Chorus) I would be on them but the only upgrade diaphragm available is the ti so I use them and I modify the drivers to help clean up the sound. In general the bigger the better for horns. Larger horns hold and control their polar pattern lower in frequency than do smaller horns. So you need to decide on how big is big for you and work within those limits. This too will help you to quickly focus your search for horns. Keep your eyes open for deals and buy and try, listen for a few months and sell off what you don't like and move forward. I hope this helps you a little to make your search less daunting and confusing. Best regards Moray James.

Edited August 23, 2014 by moray james

[Chris A]

(Ignore)

Edited August 23, 2014 by Chris A

[Boxx]

Some of this stuff gets expensive.

Yes, indeed.... lol... 

[mustang guy]

I just scored a nice set of H1's. They are sitting on top of my LS mains. In my very large space, the Heresy's just don't have the output and efficiency for such a large space. In my opinion, they sound great, and with a THT sub, they rival the LS at low levels. IMO, in a small room, Heresy's and a sub would be as good as LaScalas and subs in a very large room. 

 

Bottom line, the Heresy and a sub in a small room sounds fantastic. I have never owned a Jube, but I would speculate that it may be the only Heritage Klipsch speaker that beats a LaScala in a very large space like my shop or perhaps outdoors. My shop is 50' X '100', and the mains are 45' apart.

 

What I am getting at, is that the size and the environment should determine which is the best Heritage. Are there good corners for the Khorns? If you go with a Belle or a LS, is there still room for the possible horn loaded sub(s)? Does the Cornwall, Forte and Chorus give you deep enough bass, or are you watching LFE full movies and need a sub too? 

 

In a small room, I would be just as happy with Heresy's and sub(s) as I would be in a large space with Jubes or LS/Bells and subs. The WAF of Heresy's and subs definitely has a better WAF, especially if they are finished nicely! Also, I think Heresy's and subs outperform Chorus, Corn, and Forte.

 

edit: Everything I said above is MY OPINION ONLY. As everyone has stated, this is very subjective, and there truly is not one answer or list that all of us would completely agree on. 

Edited August 23, 2014 by mustang guy

[wvu80]

(respectful snip)

 

In a small room, I would be just as happy with Heresy's and sub(s) as I would be in a large space with Jubes or LS/Bells and subs. The WAF of Heresy's and subs definitely has a better WAF, especially if they are finished nicely! Also, I think Heresy's and subs outperform Chorus, Corn, and Forte.

 

edit: Everything I said above is MY OPINION ONLY. As everyone has stated, this is very subjective, and there truly is not one answer or list that all of us would completely agree on. 

And, my post is responding to Chris, Post 23 just a bit upstream.

 

I don't get excited about "subjective vs objective" because everything is subjective. We could even do as Chris suggests and post polar plots of everything, but I GUARANTEE that if Chris and I both posted polar plots of Heresy's (for instance) in our living rooms, the plots would still be different.  Probably similar, but different. 

 

And even if we both listened to the same speaker in the same room, polar plots be darned, we would still have different opinions of what sounded good to our ears.  He might prefer bass, I might prefer mid's, Mustang Guy might prefer high frequency because his hearing is shot from listening to his six LaScalas at insanely high DB levels.  Same speaker, same OBJECTIVE information, but different opinions.

 

In my little world, information is a range, like IQ numbers.  If I assign myself an IQ of 100 (exactly average), the only thing we really know is that 100 is most certainly NOT my IQ.  What we do know is that within 90% certainly, my real number could be as low as 90 (low average) or as high as110 (high average).   There is only a 10% chance that it would be higher or lower than that.  I think this concept could relate to evaluating speakers as well.

+++

 

(I've got to go now, to meet the daughter's new BF for lunch, but I'll add a few more observations later.  I feel certain we are all going to be able to agree on what I have to say.  )

Edited August 23, 2014 by wvu80

[mustang guy]

 

...I've got to go now, to meet the daughter's new BF for lunch...

 

Do you need to borrow a dirty shotgun you can clean in front of him or do you have one already.

[Chris A]

I don't get excited about "subjective vs objective" because everything is subjective.

Pardon my inputs on this subject.  Perhaps I can make amends above.

[dbomberger]

"but if you can't be with the Klipsch you want, love the Klipsch you're with"...seems like I heard that somewhere, or something close.

Edited August 23, 2014 by dbomberger

[jimjimbo]

"but if you can't be with the Klipsch you want, love the Klipsch you're with"...seems like I heard that somewhere, or something close.

Outstanding!  Love that song.

[Fjd]

I don't have the Top Ten (or whatever) list, but I'd like to see it.  I think somebody sometime compiled such a list, but I don't know how to search for it.

 

What I would like to see added to the list, is to rank order the stock speakers then add in modded speakers.  Is a stock LaScala better than a fully modified Heresy?  By how much? 

 

This is all very subjective. So compiling such a list, while a nice novelty, is pretty much useless information. What I think sounds better, might not to you.

 

Shakey

 

Not to put a damper on it, but yes, it is very subjective....what is your room size and conditions, treatments, music tastes, what are you driving them with, what's the source material, etc, etc, etc.  Even within my own environment I have favorites for different music, some I consider better than others for jazz, rock, acoustic, classical, opera, blues.

 

Part of the problem in evaluating speakers, is when you look at the comments of the speakers listed in the Klipch product pages; EVERY speaker rates a 5 out of 5!  That doesn't help! 

 

 

 

 

And, my post is responding to Chris, Post 23 just a bit upstream.

 

I don't get excited about "subjective vs objective" because everything is subjective. We could even do as Chris suggests and post polar plots of everything, but I GUARANTEE that if Chris and I both posted polar plots of Heresy's (for instance) in our living rooms, the plots would still be different.  Probably similar, but different. 

 

And even if we both listened to the same speaker in the same room, polar plots be darned, we would still have different opinions of what sounded good to our ears.  He might prefer bass, I might prefer mid's, Mustang Guy might prefer high frequency because his hearing is shot from listening to his six LaScalas at insanely high DB levels.  Same speaker, same OBJECTIVE information, but different opinions.

 

Sometimes I wish Chris would not give up on some topics; however, in reading the posts, I believe that Shakeydeal and JimJimbo may have best answered your question and you have probably figured it out that you will need to listen to each model yourself and make your own decisions regarding your list.

 

I have always found it much more helpful when we do not quickly divide people up into "camps" such as subjectivist and objectivist when we are really looking at a continuum of reasoning and knowledge.  People can easily be fooled and I find that I can put cheap wine in an 'expensive wine bottle' and a lot of people are fooled, especially those that have not been exposed to 'fine wine.'  Once they have a clear mental grasp of the features, then it becomes more difficult to fool them.

 

I have brought up the Acoustic Research speakers as an example in the past. In the early 1960s, AR conducted a series of over 75 live vs. recorded demonstrations throughout the United States in which the sound of a live string quartet was alternated with echo-free recorded music played through a pair of AR-3s. In this “ultimate” subjective test of audio quality, the listeners were largely unable to detect the switch from live to recorded.  However, this test does not really validate much of anything other than how easy it is to fool people. 

 

Garyrc had brought up that Consumers Reports magazine loved the AR series, but they defined "accurate" as "having relatively flat frequency response." They didn't even mention distortion. Most of my friends and I could not stand the AR speakers (including the top rated AR3a) because they sounded muddy compared to EV, JBL, Tannoy and Klipsch, all of which had superior transient response (and lower frequency modulation distortion, I presume).

 

So now we are left with descriptions such as do I perceive the bass to be either 'mushy' or 'tight;' is the treble 'harsh' or 'smooth.'  Where do we work in 'clean, detailed, effortless, smeared, harsh, strained, etc.' 

 

I believe that Chris may have been getting at ways these perceived differences could be tested, investigated and explained to better understand where we may be fooling ourselves. 

 

[garyrc]

I don't have the Top Ten (or whatever) list, but I'd like to see it.  I think somebody sometime compiled such a list, but I don't know how to search for it.

 

What I would like to see added to the list, is to rank order the stock speakers then add in modded speakers.  Is a stock LaScala better than a fully modified Heresy?  By how much?  Somebody out there knows.

 

If this list is not out there, then maybe we can come up with one, either rank order or by numerical rating.  I would propose a scale of 1-100, with 50 being average, something along those lines, but then you would have to rate the "average" speaker, so other speakers could be compared to that standard.

 

Adding pictures would be nice.  I think we could do that.

 

In a very favorable room, tight in the corners, with the listener(s) on axis, I'd vote for the Klipschorn.

 

1-100 is way too wide a scale.  The most practical rating scales tend to have just a few choices (e.g., 5 point to 9 point scales are common) and an odd number of rating choices, so that there will be a number right smack in the center for "average" or "typical."   The trouble with having Klipschites rate speakers, is we may not have much prolonged experience with average speakers.

 

Rank order may make more sense for us. 

 

For the ones I have had experience with:

 

BEST

 

Klipschorn

 

La Scala II

 

Belle

 

Heresy II

 

Heresy I

 

WORST

 

The La Scala I often sounds a bit harsh to me, but the II is better (thanks to better bass?).  After the Belle came out, PWK "toned it down a bit," according to a long time Klipsch dealer and a friend of PWK. 

Edited August 23, 2014 by Garyrc

[wvu80]

 

I don't get excited about "subjective vs objective" because everything is subjective.

Pardon my inputs on this subject.  Perhaps I can make amends above.

 

Pardon your inputs?  I don't understand what you're saying, or what it might be that you need to make amends for?  Unless you're kidding around, in which case it went straight over my head, and then I owe you an apology for me being dense. 

 

Seriously, I thought your post was excellent, that's why I referenced it.  I was just using it as a jumping off spot.