is it important to remember from where you have come?

[Schu]

I think there is something important to be said for having perspective... in that way you can really judge the value of, or the quality of, what it is you are involved in.

 

How do we get perspective? by trial and error, by experiencing difference, by building up "seat time".

 

I think a person that comes in and buys a vintage pair of 901's might say to themselves, "my god those are the best sounding speakers I have ever heard"... then give them a listen of some heritage and they gain some perspective irrespectful of the whether or not they personally like the heritage sound.

 

The old adage, Travel broadens the mind applies here.

 

I think when I first started this thread, my main concern was... when can we judge when enough is enough in terms of acquisitions and modifications when really, for me personally, the hobby is not about buying, finding deals or synergistic compromise and interplay of components but one of "Listening" to music.

[Schu]

perhaps the act of "trying new things" to experience those differences is actually part of the entire experience because in all honesty, there is no right or wrong... just personal taste.

[Fjd]

I think there is something important to be said for having perspective... in that way you can really judge the value of, or the quality of, what it is you are involved in.

 

How do we get perspective? by trial and error, by experiencing difference, by building up "seat time".

 

 

For an audio system, if a person has calibrated their ears using live music, they will not necessarily need to try a lot of different systems (and make perceived upward moves or perceived lateral moves) to know what they ultimately want.  Depending upon the goal, the perspective will come from the calibrated ears.

[russ69]

It's a hobby, blow the walls out if you wish. Tens of thousands is not too much to spend on a hobby, enjoy. For me personally, I enjoy my more affordable systems but my reference system really gets my juices flowing. It's hard to think about downsizing...

[BigStewMan]

I think when I first started this thread, my main concern was... when can we judge when enough is enough in terms of acquisitions and modifications

 maybe there is this mystical point of no longer wondering or caring if there is ‘better” out there.  Just feeling that even if there is, i don’t care … my gear sounds incredible and i’m satisfied.  However, as some have mentioned, there is pleasure in the journey and i look, as i type this, at some Cornwalls and Heresies in the room--which are fine; but, long ago I said “someday i’d like to have some KHorns” so i don’t think i’ll stop until i have some.  

[Schu]

I think there is something important to be said for having perspective... in that way you can really judge the value of, or the quality of, what it is you are involved in.

How do we get perspective? by trial and error, by experiencing difference, by building up "seat time".

For an audio system, if a person has calibrated their ears using live music, they will not necessarily need to try a lot of different systems (and make perceived upward moves or perceived lateral moves) to know what they ultimately want. Depending upon the goal, the perspective will come from the calibrated ears.

I cant agree with this in totality... how many good sounding live music events have you seen?

I think I have seen as many bad sound events somewhere in equal amounts as to bad sounding home sounds systems.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Schu

[Scrappydue]

perhaps the act of "trying new things" to experience those differences is actually part of the entire experience because in all honesty, there is no right or wrong... just personal taste.

that is my "problem". i want as much seat time as i can get so i buy every klipsch i can as long as i can get my money back out of them. my theater journey ended at the cinema. to me they are the best klipsch has to offer. but ill keep trucking along. excited for new reference stuff 

[Fjd]

 

 

I think there is something important to be said for having perspective... in that way you can really judge the value of, or the quality of, what it is you are involved in.

How do we get perspective? by trial and error, by experiencing difference, by building up "seat time".

For an audio system, if a person has calibrated their ears using live music, they will not necessarily need to try a lot of different systems (and make perceived upward moves or perceived lateral moves) to know what they ultimately want. Depending upon the goal, the perspective will come from the calibrated ears.

I cant agree with this in totality... how many good sounding live music events have you seen?

I think I have seen as many bad sound events somewhere in equal amounts as to bad sounding home sounds systems.

 

 

 

 

It looks like I need to expand my initial thoughts.  However, I am pleased that you edited your post to soften your first “absolute” post that seemed to be an attempt to quickly discredit my statement rather than seeing a different side to a story, which can sometimes help a person more clearly see themselves and better define their own goals.

 

In the post I quoted I had believed that you were looking for alternative ways to develop “perspective” and I did not believe that you had started this thread to debate which live events sound good and can be used to calibrate the ears vs. which live events did not sound good and should not be used to calibrate the ears.  

 

I do sincerely hope that you are able to discern from my post that I was not immediately discarding anyone’s point of view in this thread and was only offering another alternative that had not been discussed and may be a viable alternative to some that would help them to avoid the equipment churn that happens so often from ‘trial and error.’  Of course, for some (in certain respects I fall into this category and I will explain why later in the post) enjoy the equipment churn in and of itself as part of the journey, in addition to the overall enjoyment of music. 

 

To help readers of the thread expound upon and personify a multitude of alternatives to “having perspective” or “gaining perspective,” one of the primary reasons that I qualified my response with “depending upon the goal” was due to the differences that each person will place on perceived “value” on certain aspects when compared to others and acknowledging that each person may have a different definition of “quality” when compared to others.

 

I currently have different “goals” and different reasons for exploring the different systems that I have assembled. 

 

In one system I am looking for that “creamy, lush, velvety” midrange so effusively captured by 1960s tube gear such as the McIntosh MC 30 mono blocks. 

 

For one of my main systems, I have been following the beaten-to-death topic of “accurate reproduction” or “accurate simulation” of a live event, such as acoustic music played in an intimate theatre setting.  

 

What does this mean to me in setting my goal for “accurate simulation”? I would say that it means I’m looking to have this system emulate a "single listening position of a live performance of acoustic instruments in a given space."  How should I go about accomplishing this goal for this specific system?

 

I believe that the goal of “accurate simulation” is better served by calibrating my ears to that desired listening position of a live performance of acoustic instruments in a given space rather than comparing my McIntosh MC 30 tube amps to the Scott LK72 integrated tube amp or to the Harman Kardon A-300 integrated tube amp.

 

Now for the “creamy, lush, velvety” midrange, the comparison of my McIntosh MC 30 tube amps to the Scott LK72 integrated tube amp or Harman Kardon A-300 integrated tube amp probably makes more sense and probably stands to be the 'better chance' of giving my ears the information needed to make my decision.

 

However, please note and be conscious of my goals in relation to my exploration of each system, I have developed different goals that I believe to be consistent with my intended overall listening experience for each respective system.

 

Unless I misunderstood the quote of a post of yours below, even you, yourself, appeared to believe at one point in time that “accuracy being as close to representing a ‘LIVE PERFORMANCE’ as possible... was a fair definition.”  

 

 

 

 

I haven't been following this thread closely so I gotta ask -- has anyone actually tried to define what "accuracy" is?

 

I remember we had a similar discussion in another thread and someone quoted a source that said what they look for in a recording and explained that accuracy to them was being as close to representing a "LIVE PERFORMANCE" as possible... I felt that was a fair definition.

 

even if I happened to be listening to a synthesizer.

 

 

Given your earlier post, my “ask” of you would be "do you still agree with your earlier post?"  If not, “how do we develop a perspective for accuracy to even remotely understand where to take our audio system if we do NOT calibrate our ears to live performances and only rely upon swapping and comparing gear?

 

I believe that sometimes it takes getting farther away from something to see it for what it really is.  Some people call it the “forest-for-the-trees.”  I tend to believe that in certain instances the same is true when it comes to gaining perspective and understanding our own audio listening goals.

 

I do hope this helps you better understand my initial thoughts and goals of the post.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Fjd

[Rhetor]

The use of the word "goal" resonates with me in association with this thread topic, and a welcomed idea especially in multiple setups . . . from 2 channel, to HT, to the bedroom, workshop or porch.

In each of my setups, I had a different goal in mind. I never the goal with each since starting out with nothing (not a speaker or an amp in the house) in 2008 when I set up my first HT as 7.1 RF 82. I reached the goal of setting up the HT with a satisfying system while I was wheelchair bound for 1 1/2 years (the impetus for the first Hat setup was knowing I would be down for a good while with a lot of required elevation of my lower limbs.). My goal was reached and was very content.

In January 2011, I bumped into a freshly recapped pair of KG2s. My goal shifted. Two pair of KG4s were found. Then . . . I got a chance to purchase my first La Scalas knowing they would need some parts.

A few parts later, I heard my first LaScalas . . . not only did my goals shift again, but so did my musical worldview!

Fast forward . . . I now have three Heritage setups (HT, 2 channel, home office) and a porch system. Each setup was comple and done forever . . . well, until my goals shifted . . . now I have more goals specific to each setup, preciously as Shu as articulated . . . because we learn as we go.

[Fjd]

The use of the word "goal" resonates with me in association with this thread topic, and a welcomed idea especially in multiple setups . . . from 2 channel, to HT, to the bedroom, workshop or porch.

 

 

Sometimes I believe that “understanding one's own personal goal” is often missed.  I remember the old subwoofer threads on various forums where a 'group' was ‘rating’ subwoofers with some objective information, but much subjective information too that would essentially involve assigning 'subjective points.' 

 

I found it interesting how people would buy a subwoofer based solely on a ‘subjective’ impression of someone they knew nothing about, then before even receiving the order they would ‘question’ their own decision because there was a new subjective impression of a new sub ‘blowing the windows out of the house’ and now ranking ‘two subjective points’ above the ranking of their purchased sub. 

 

Given the 'impulse' to buy illustrated above, I still truly believe that another way I have broadened my ‘perspective’ and refined my goals has been from taking the time to learn about the ‘perspective’ and qualifications of others and my attempts to diligently understand how this ‘perspective’ of others may be consistent with the goals I’m trying to achieve. 

 

Once I have determined that someone may be articulating credible information in relation to one of my goals, I have taken the time to thoroughly assess each post made (both for and against) in a thread and try to objectively evaluate and corroborate the concepts in relation to the goal that I have established.  This process helps me form a level of trust in that person's perspective that I can somewhat rely upon as part of my decision making process.

 

When developing my goal of “accurate simulation” I’ve gleaned a huge amount of insight reading the various "argumentative" threads on this forum.

 

The list of people to credit is very long; however, some of the more drawn-out forum debates between members such as Chris A, ClaudeJ, mdeneen, Mallette, mikebse2a3, Don Richard, DeanG, Dr Who, among a host of others has really helped me cull a lot of useful information to help me gain ‘perspective’ with my audio goals, among gaining "perspective" in other areas of interest too.    

 

I believe that in most instances it is a natural progression to experience progress, grow, refine our goals, and gain new “perspective” of many things over time and this perspective should not solely rely upon comparing what a person has already had to what they have now as there are many avenues to gaining useful perspective.  Even after years of hits to the head during his career, even Muhammad Ali had the sense to state that “A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life.”

Edited December 9, 2014 by Fjd

[babadono]

 

 

I think there is something important to be said for having perspective... in that way you can really judge the value of, or the quality of, what it is you are involved in.

How do we get perspective? by trial and error, by experiencing difference, by building up "seat time".

For an audio system, if a person has calibrated their ears using live music, they will not necessarily need to try a lot of different systems (and make perceived upward moves or perceived lateral moves) to know what they ultimately want. Depending upon the goal, the perspective will come from the calibrated ears.

I cant agree with this in totality... how many good sounding live music events have you seen?

I think I have seen as many bad sound events somewhere in equal amounts as to bad sounding home sounds systems.

 

+1  Ding...Ding... Ding

I've heard many terrible live events... I've heard some good ones too.

[Fjd]

 

 

 

I think there is something important to be said for having perspective... in that way you can really judge the value of, or the quality of, what it is you are involved in.

How do we get perspective? by trial and error, by experiencing difference, by building up "seat time".

For an audio system, if a person has calibrated their ears using live music, they will not necessarily need to try a lot of different systems (and make perceived upward moves or perceived lateral moves) to know what they ultimately want. Depending upon the goal, the perspective will come from the calibrated ears.

I cant agree with this in totality... how many good sounding live music events have you seen?

I think I have seen as many bad sound events somewhere in equal amounts as to bad sounding home sounds systems.

 

+1  Ding...Ding... Ding

I've heard many terrible live events... I've heard some good ones too.

 

 

Geez, does anyone actually read (other than Rhetor) the entire post and consider “goals” and any of the follow up clarification regarding the potential to experience multiple avenues to gaining perspective? 

 

I’ve also been to 150 plus rock concerts over a 25 year period and I’m not sure about you; however, I’m NOT recommending Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath, or any of the rock concerts to calibrate ears in developing a system for "accurate simulation" to emulate a single listening position of a live performance of acoustic instruments in a given space.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Fjd

[derrickdj1]

More often I like the CD sound over the live concert sound when I think back to the shows.  To much ambient noise interfers with the music.  The concert are fun but for a permanent copy for home use, CD quality all the way.

[mustang guy]

For me, what I am learning is as important as the journey. Much of the money in my system is an investment rather than a cost, since I buy low, and restore if needed. That matters when spending, since I don't feel as guilty if I know I can get my money back out if needed or if I desired. I have an expensive set of golf clubs I can't say that about, and I hate golf. It bugs me that I have those clubs collecting dust. I do not regret any of the audio equipment I have.

 

Is there such a thing as shopping addiction? Shopping and spending are choices. I do not mean to bring this up as a debate. It is a rhetorical question. There was a trend some years ago where things were classified as illnesses so insurance companies would pay for their treatment. I wonder if Obamacare would pay for a $100 / hr shrink bill for my shopping addiction?

[twk123]

This thread reminds me of a great lecture from the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest:

 

 

Personally, I think the enjoyment is two fold. I really love buying equipment on Craigslist as I am on a budget and I love the thrill of seeing a component I want, researching it and negotiating a good price then going out and making the deal happen. So far, I got my KSB 1.1's for free, KG 5.5's for $400, My Denon AVR 3801 for $35 and inherited my Thorens TD-214 turntable for free. Even the setup is enjoyable as you have to measure your room and the speaker angles and get all the calibration correct. Then when you put everything together and it sounds incredible its that much more rewarding. You also understand the mechanics behind the quality and can listen for it when you hear your favorite music or movie. As far as being satisfied, it will probably never happen because there is no end in seeking that perfection in your hobby. There is always a DIY project or equipment upgrade that will make the puzzle fit ever more clearer. 

 

Similar to driving, I love Forza 4 and play it all the time. Simply racing stock cars gets old pretty quick but once you start tuning and realizing all the aspects that go into making a 1,050 hp monster controllable around a track you have a better appreciation when you play with your buddies. In your head when playing you intermittently think, 'Ok good thing I set the rear diff to lock at 85% so the back isnt slipping out right now'.

 

Its the same satisfaction with setting up your own sound system. When the flying Ringwraith circles over the dead marshes rattling the room and you can still hear Gollum tweaking out and throwing himself under bushes you remember the hours of subwoofer setup and speaker calibration and it makes that moment even better.