eth2 Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Is it possible to use an MM cartridge with a Line Stage. I just bought a Scout with a Ortofon Black cartridge and it sounds like the record player I had when I was 5. Tinny and just plain awful. Edited February 21, 2015 by eth2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Something bad wrong there. I've used that combination on several preamps, tube and SS, and the results are uniformly equal to the best I've ever heard. How many phono stages have you tried? Years ago I had a passive RIAA in line device feeding a line stage. I don't know if they make them anymore or not nor can I recall how good the results were. There are PC programs for doing that...but then you are in the digital realm. Dave Edited February 21, 2015 by Mallette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 You have to have a phono equalization circuit to make your records sound normal. (RIAA curve?) A line Stage doesn't have that circuit...that's why it's called a line stage. A phono preamplifier is called that because of the eq circuit. Do a search on the subject. You will quickly understand. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eth2 Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 I have a Peach, Cary and Krell preamp. They all sound like my old crystal radio with the Scout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 So you at least know it's the TT or the cartridge. Any issues I've ever experienced with a TT were pretty easy to spot as mechanical. Your experience suggests an electrical issue or flaw in the cart. Do you have another cart of any kind you could substitute? Did you get these new? Given the length of time it had been since I set up a really first class TT and the money I was spending I got mine from Jerry Raskin's due to their over the top customer service and depth of knowledge. Unless there is an OEM error somewhere it's certainly not the Scout or the Ortofon. Both have been around long enough to have been reviewed by the press and users and those are uniformly in the downright hyperbole area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eth2 Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) So I am still confused. The Scout and the Ortofon were set up yesterday by the dealer (Quest for Sound) and sounded wonderful in their studio. With my pre's it is a different story. So do I need a phono prestage. I have read about RIAA as Mike suggested and it would appear that I do need one. Can anyone confirm or disaffirm this guess? Edited February 21, 2015 by eth2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 are you running this through a phono input ??? if not it will sound like crap, no where near enough gain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Yes you need a phono stage. Period. You can get them cheap through ebay etc. Phono stages, like many aspects of our hobby benefit from quality components etc., but depending on how far you are going with records, will determine how much you spend on a phono stage. If you have a surround sound receiver it may have one built in. The Peach is definetly a linestage. Check the back of the Cary and Krell and see if there is a rca input called "phono" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eth2 Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 are you running this through a phono input ??? if not it will sound like crap, no where near enough gain No just an aux input. There is enough volume but a tinny sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eth2 Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 Yes you need a phono stage. Period. You can get them cheap through ebay etc. Phono stages, like many aspects of our hobby benefit from quality components etc., but depending on how far you are going with records, will determine how much you spend on a phono stage. If you have a surround sound receiver it may have one built in. The Peach is definetly a linestage. Check the back of the Cary and Krell and see if there is a rca input called "phono" No there are only aux inputs on all three Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eth2 Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 OK guys, so the answer is I need a phono stage. That is a relief as I did not want to send everything back. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) No there are only aux inputs on all three Well, of course you must have a phono stage for your mag cart. This will greatly boost (1) phono gain and (2) phono bass, and greatly reduce phono treble, and make it sound like it should. I'm a little surprised the setup guy let you get out of there without finishing the job. Quality pre's like Cary and Krell are likely to have a phono input, unless clearly called a "line stage" preamp, in which case it does not. What made you think it's a line stage, and why did you put it in the title of the thread, unless you and the dealer seriously crossed wires? Some preamps with a phono stage don't bother putting a "phono" label on the jack in the back or on the selector switch in front. BAT and Joule Electra are cases in point -- you have to read the manual, or somehow just know, that the "Aux 1" input is actually the phono. That input would, of course, have the right gain, bass, and treble. So, you might try plugging your phono into (and selecting) each Aux input in turn until you find which one is the actual phono input, if there is one. Edited February 21, 2015 by LarryC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) OK guys, so the answer is I need a phono stage. Good lord...never occurred to me that you didn't have one at all. I thought that, for some reason, you wanted to use passive RIAA stage with a line stage. That is possible with a high output MM, but RIAA is not optional. While you need a really good one, don't get too anal about it. A couple of hundred spent wisely will do very well. I think the Bellari's are quite a bargain and there are plenty more. Perhaps your store will provide some high price/performance options. Dave Edited February 21, 2015 by Mallette 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eth2 Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 The Peach is a line stage without a phono input, the Krell and cary are also strictly line stages. I though that only LOMC and some MC cartridges required a phono stage to boost the signal. That is why I bought a MM rather than an MC. Now I think I understand that there is a need for a phono equalization circuit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 What you're hearing is the effect of not having the RIAA equalization. You can read about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization Just to be pedantic. Surface noise was a problem with shellac 78 rpm records. It was mostly high freq noise. When microgroove 33 1/3 rpm vinyl (and 45 rpm) came out this surface noise issue was "solved" by boosting high freqs in the recording before the audio signal is fed to the cutting head which cuts the grooves for the master plate from which the vinyl is made . It seems to me that it is a linearly increasing boost per octave. Therefore, although there was still surface noise, the higher freqs on the record were louder. That is what you're hearing. The graph in the article implies 40 dB boost of the highest as compared to the lowest freqs. So, to recover a "flat" response in playback, it is necessary to undo the boost with a filter having the inverse function of the boost. That inverse is the graph in the article. A phono preamp also adds some gain, usually. There were some other similar schemes with other curves IIRC. There is some math in characterizing.the slope of that curve. Probably dB per "cycles per second." IIRC the cycles per second gets inverted and therefore the 1/second comes out as seconds, or one-thousands of seconds. This is why you may see reference to other equalization slopes described in mS (milliseconds). However this is not delay, just a number regarding the slope. Some early CD's which were duplication of master tape recordings were awful. The thought was that they were made from master tapes which had the RIAA boost on them because they were made to feed the cutting machines. It is hard to believe that such an error could be made, but perhaps it was. WMcD 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 I have a Peach, Cary and Krell preamp. They all sound like my old crystal radio with the Scout. The phono stage is the ABSOLUTE most important piece of your LP playing system. By most important, I mean it has the biggest effect on the sound quality. Do not scrimp on this if you want to get any value out of your expensive turntable system. Yes, they sell dozens of little $50 phono stages. No, they aren't worth buying. After I sold my BBX and started just using the Merlin, I picked up a $40 Audio Technica phono pre. It works great and sounds good. I got mine from the Needle Doctor, but he doesn't sell them any more. I believe they may have been discontinued. So... in reality, you don't have to spend big bucks. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadco Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Do your self a favor and get a good phono stage, something equal to the rest of your LP Gear. Look at Graham Slee for example Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 So... in reality, you don't have to spend big bucks. Amen! I got my preamp I use for my 78 TT from phonopreamps.com. Cheap, and amazingly good. This may be an area where the audible improvement from cheap, but well made, to expensive shows the least difference. If you are in a hurry, just order something inexpensive. Take a look at the TCC TC-750LC Phono Preamp at the referenced site. Use it for immediate relief while you study a permanent solution. Once replaced, it will serve as a backup. Fifty bucks... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eth2 Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 Thank you, all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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