mustang guy Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I am also an Adobe subscriber. I am subscribed to Muse, Lightroom and Photoshop. I do it because it is convenient. I hate reinstalling and entering keys, not to mention trying to remember where the hell the install disks are. Etc, etc, etc... If I could figure out a way to make my truck state inspection and license renewal automatic, I'd pay more for that too. Hate doing those things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 The openoffice writer is very intuitive and works nicely if you do nto need to collaberate large docs with others. ... when it works. I tried it a few years ago, and it flopped on inserting pictures. Maybe the fixed their flaws since then, but it was not even in the same league as Word. Jeff, Try Libre Office, same code base as Open Office, but I think they update more often. There are things where it may still lag behind, but I find it very useable. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) Agreed. My staff has subscriptions to all things Adobe. I mean everything they make, and it makes sense for my department as we stay at the edge and have to upgrade to every new version anyway. However, this prices the home user out of the market. I expect to see some Photoshop competition crop up. One of my machines at home had an at least 10 year old plus pre Creative Suite version...and it worked just fine. Of course, as MS changes things there will come a time when it doesn't and these stand alone versions become history and everyone is totally dependent on the web...right where they want us. Both corporate and home wise I've avoided cloud based anything like the disease it is...but you can't win against these guys. They've sold it to everyone and made the kool-aid look like a favor. Dave The cloud based stuff scares me.I still have CS4 at home... Got the Master Collection when I had some extra cash. CS6 is almost three years old, everything since is Creative Cloud. I'mnot fond of GIMP, but it is cross platform. Amazing for Windows is Paint.NET. It's a free Paint replacement, reply pretty nice, does layers. It was a project by interns at MS, but they never released it. The interns update it every once in awhile. Probably satisfy 95% of folks who think they need PhotoShop. There are other high end expensive programs that you could get, but you only need them for collaboration or specific uses. Bruce Edited March 3, 2015 by Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 While we're 'vetching. It is not only MS programs but . . . it seems to me they design so that there are three or four ways of getting to the same place or doing the same job. This means the gui is a thicker forest, three times as thick, than it need be. Is there any other type of human - machine interface which does this? What if there were three different ways to apply service brakes in an automobile? WMcD What if you couldn't find the brakes? ...because someone decided they would rather discourage braking because it wastes gas. Kind of like the first time I tried to print a document in one of the newer versions of MS Office. They hid the button and it had to be enabled. Wasn't even listed under "popular commands." I was told you should live and work electronically since printing just kills trees. Let's see you run your office without ever printing anything! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Funny! The two people I know who worked for MS are both very wealthy and retired to follow their dreams in their 40's. Lots of people have gotten rich with MS sticking to it's plan of constant obsolescence, increased bloating to ensure Intel kept selling new processors and systems requiring a new OS, and ensuring the need for an MS priesthood at every company to keep the thing running. Few are left who really understand that Gates strategy had nothing to do with improving technology, quite the opposite. It was still 16 bit LONG after other OS were 32, all the way to 1995. I'd been using 32bit OS since 1985. I'd been programming 4 channels of independently controllable sound, working in 24 bit color when Windows was 256, using the OS "say" command to read text files (MS still doesn't have this basic function), the list goes on. Once MS had industry the public had no choice, nor did they think much about it as they had no computer skills and assumed if Exxon uses it, it must be good. Once the others were eradicated, it only took a while before people got acclimated to such a backward, constantly needing attention, buggy system and were SO happy when things that had been the norm for professionals for a decade or more started trickling out of Redmond. I still have a machine at home...the one I am trying to find a university collection to place it...that was last updated in 1996 and can run full screen 24 bit animations at 30fps without so much as a flicker. With a 100 times the processing power most Windows machines STILL fail that test. My 3D modeling guy is about my age and started out on the superior architecture, Of course, like all of us, he's been on Windows for 20 years...but he still uses Lightwave and its MUCH more intuitive non-Windows standard interface. We just implemented a massive render box for him, Dell 7910, fully decked and around 12,000.00 delivered. He's pleased that he is ALMOST to the render speeds of 1995. Back to the future, donchaknow. This will probably fly past everyone, but the main reason for the differences is the abstraction layer to video posed by WinTel architectures vector basis. DOS was designed to support word processing and spreadsheets, hence the green or amber monochrome screens for nearly a decade. Video is a raster process, which should explain why you can watch HD TV without so much as a processor with perfect smoothness but need a Windows boxes full power to do the same thing. The reason anims ran so smoothly was the blitter, a dedicated graphics subsystem that could move graphics as blocks with no CPU access. Not possible in vector systems, nor are sprites, or color cycling. Again, MS could ignore these things because only a relatively small segment of us require them. It's been my hope that somebody would develop a raster graphics coprocessor for WinTel architecture, but so far they are only found in printers. I make a very good living in Windows...but, as I said, much of it has been simply implementing "genius" ideas as Windows crawls forward and is able to emulate things we once did without even thinking about it. There is common belief that the best product wins. Not always, especially if the individual users have little or no control. Big business was all IBM and DEC, then dedicated word processors, then about PCs that could word process, do spreadsheets, and network. As MS dominated these areas they first took out IBM, then proceeded to knock off the rest. There were almost NO home PCs beyond the C64 for a decade. It was the internet that re-invigorated the home PC market and by then there was only one choice. I don't really count Apple as it's just a Windows alternative and largely the same thing at higher price. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 The real problem isn't Windows, but that Windows is designed to run on varied hardware, from mediocre to great. Your wonderful computer was, like Apple, a package deal, with the hardware and software/OS written only for that computer. Your complaint should be with NVIDIA or ATI/AMD. They make the graphics cards and drivers. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prerich Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 7 will be sunseted as soon as 10 is released which will be this year. As the Cybermen say " You WILL be upgraded." Word has it that upgrade from 8 may be free. Not sure about 7. As to Word and Excel, they are a monopoly about the only "deals" are the educational pricing if you can qualify. Dave Upgrade from Windows 8 and 7 is free. Vista is free also but you must do a clean install (It won't let you keep your apps - it will slick your hard drive and do a fresh install instead of an upgrade). Microsoft is moving to a subscription based format (I think office 2013 is like $9 a month). That's the way all of its going - subscription based. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prerich Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 7 will be sunseted as soon as 10 is released which will be this year. As the Cybermen say " You WILL be upgraded." Word has it that upgrade from 8 may be free. Not sure about 7. As to Word and Excel, they are a monopoly about the only "deals" are the educational pricing if you can qualify. Dave Upgrade from Windows 8 and 7 is free. Vista is free also but you must do a clean install (It won't let you keep your apps - it will slick your hard drive and do a fresh install instead of an upgrade). Microsoft is moving to a subscription based format (I think office 2013 is like $9 a month). That's the way all of its going - subscription based. P.S. It's free for a year....then new subscription....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 It must be tough though writing software, I can just picture the poor guy saying to himself, "Now I have to make this OS work with 5000 video card drivers, 5000 hard drives, 5000 sound cards, 5000 power supplies, 5000 motherboards, 5000 network cards, and 5,000,000 applications." You would think by now they would have "Jammo Jammo" software that would literally make anything work in anything at the push of a button. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Lots of people have gotten rich with MS sticking to it's plan of constant obsolescence... I don't know about you, but when I foray into the software market, I hope to dickens my software is always in constant obsolescence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 It must be tough though writing software, I can just picture the poor guy saying to himself, "Now I have to make this OS work with 5000 video card drivers, 5000 hard drives, 5000 sound cards, 5000 power supplies, 5000 motherboards, 5000 network cards, and 5,000,000 applications." You would think by now they would have "Jammo Jammo" software that would literally make anything work in anything at the push of a button. JJK And vice, versa... The hardware people have to write firmware to make the hardware communicate with Windows. Along a similar vein (about how MS is so bad), could you imagine writing an operating system 20 years ago and then, constantly upgrading it to make it do more (and yes, 8 does loads more than 95 ever did), while all at the same time, trying to extend backwards compatibility because old-school users will cry "foul" if you make them upgrade (ala "constant obsolescence")? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 The real problem isn't Windows, but that Windows is designed to run on varied hardware, from mediocre to great. Your wonderful computer was, like Apple, a package deal, with the hardware and software/OS written only for that computer. Your complaint should be with NVIDIA or ATI/AMD. They make the graphics cards and drivers. Bruce We have a winner, Bruce! Windows is for the world, and Apple is for a niche. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 That era is coming to an end fast. I'm not predicting that. I realize that when you own the world, there is the concept of going from "mover" to "cash cow," which then makes you think, "Roman Empire!" I don't see anything out there which threatens Windows. Heck, everything you see was written on a Windows platform. Nobody else is writing operating systems (not with any serious merit, anyway). We are not going to morph into a society without operating systems. Granted, Android is a stripped-down system for a rinky-dink platform. That has a real and serious market. A very big one. I am not talking about toy gadgets, though. I am talking about full-scale productivity. The kinds needed to run businesses, whether they be Fortune 500 or mom and pop. I think Microsoft has peaked, but I don't see it becoming obsolete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 MS has been very slow to move to cloud. Just like they were slow to move to internet. The PC which was the backbone of MS business is dying quickly. This chokes off their revenue growth. They also have missed the play on security. So, it's hard to see much future for them. Completely disagree. What you are witnessing is a division of segments which were once combined. In the not-so-long-ago-past, if you wanted to play computer games and surf the net, you had to do it on a PC. This is the segment I call the "games, social networking and past-time, with minimal productivity" segment. Then, you have the "let's get down to work and do something really productive" segment. That remains on a PC, and I think it will for some time to come. Why is that? Well, for starters, you need a decent keyboard if you are going to use the thing like a tool, and if you are going to use it like a tool, you need a good-sized monitor, too. Those things are irreplaceable. And if you must have those things, you might as well pack enough of a drive and ram in with them, so that you can accomplish some heavier tasks that little Android toys can't. Windows will keep the productivity market. You are watching it shed it's toy market. It has not come in too strong in that market, but it is now trying. There is just not anything of peculiar merit to it in that particular market to justify migrating to it when you've been using others for so long. If they could find the "connection" between tool and toy that people need, they might warrant a mass migration back. Nobody knows what that "connection" is (or at least, I don't). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Even in gaming the PC wins. Interfaces like Steam and the ability to use XBOX and PS/4 controllers with games with them give them the ability to replace your game console and play at higher speeds with better graphics and less latency. My son demonstrated using a PS/4 controller with a Steam game, and I was pretty impressed. Aparently Sony did not make the controllers proprietary enough to keep clever coders from building a driver interface for the PC. MS is not the only operating system. Macs run Linux, as do every router on the internet. Linux is here to stay, and in many ways is much bigger than MS. I do see a convergence of monitors and TV's. 4K is new, but it is a standard that can allow a CAD worker look at a single 60" screen instead of four 25" screens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 It's all about growth. Those heavy duty desktop applications you talk about are legacy markets with very little growth. I agree. Growth will not be in PC platforms, but that does not tell me it will be canned. MS needs to keep an eye on the future, and that means cloud and mobile. PC will never be only a legacy. It may even become smaller rather than grow. This is not a death, just a shift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 The real problem isn't Windows, but that Windows is designed to run on varied hardware, from mediocre to great. Your wonderful computer was, like Apple, a package deal, with the hardware and software/OS written only for that computer. It's both. Wintel architecture is a direct descendent of the IBM PC, which was tinkered together in a panic to try to become relevant in the growing PC market from off the shelf hardware. All it had to do was word processing and spreadsheets, and that's about all it was good for and used for. They did then, and never did, develop any expertise in PC architecture. Gates most brilliant, and one of the most brilliant moves in all business history, was that simple deal that got him access to DOS. Knowing as he did that as IBM went, so went industry, he could set out to fulfill his statement that "I will change the way American computes." You don't have to be a computer expert to realize that making the CPU handle everything wasn't, and remains, not a good idea. The 8086 processors were dogs at math, and as AutoCAD came along and spreadsheet grew larger, a math coprocessor slot had to be added, sold separately. This was finally folded in with 286 architecture. But graphics remained a CPU load, as well as sound when it came along. In better computer architecture sound and graphics were entirely separate sub systems placing no load on the CPU. Such architecture also has the advantage of meaning no alien drivers and such as the drivers are part of the OS. As to other hassles, like the hundreds of file formats, a better way is for the OS to enforces a single basic file structure for each file type. Third party programmers can make additions to the file types for their special needs, but the basic structure has to remain the same. So, while a different program might not have say, tables, in a word processor, it could still load the text and basic formatting. It's been mentioned a bit that specialized machines are penetrating the home market to take over a lot of formerly PC duties. Chrome is a good idea, though I am no fan of cloud based programs. Phones and Android are another. Even MS, with Xbox basically has bypassed the limitations of Windows where it works especially poorly. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I agree. Growth will not be in PC platforms I agree with the "...PC platforms" but as I mentioned above non-PC platforms are picking up steam and taking up the slack. My bunch of supergeeks at ARCO Technology Transfer Group built a machine in 1995 that would simultaneously run AmigaOS, MacOS, and Windows. The excellent 68050 CPU with it's MMU architecture simply treated the Mac and Windows as tasks. If they crashed or needed to be rebooted, no sweat, it would not affect the other processes. Windows still, in many cases, can't even manage a program process going south without crashing the whole thing. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Macs run Linux, as do every router on the internet. Not true. Macs run on a version of FreeBSD and NetBSD Unix (mostly). Not the same thing as Linux. Linux is a Unix 'like' OS. Routers are kind of all over the map. Dave, you and Mark are both beating a dead horse. I have a feeling that we will all be gone before MS is out of the picture. Bruce 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Dave, you and Mark are both beating a dead horse. I have a feeling that we will all be gone before MS is out of the picture. No argument from me. I get caught up at time trying to explain the history of the PC as I lived it, starting with Altair. Gates and the MS monopoly blindsided me and I've never quite been able to fully accept it. At the time, I didn't understand that computer geeks had nothing to do with driving the business and "best' didn't have anything to do with it either. Certainly managed to recover enough to earn a living at it but guess I've never gotten over the resentment. There were programs I used back then that still haven't been equaled because the architecture doesn't support efficient code and is, in essence, a "one size fits nobody" device. It's a waste to try to explain how we used to use two or three programs for a process and used a very straightforward script to automate entire processes. One OS requirement was that all programs had to have command line handles such that such a script could automate them. And, no, you didn't have to use the command line or learn to code. There were several programs that would like at the program you were automating and put up the commands for that program so you just select the sequence from "open" through "save" and then moved on to the next program. Anyway...there I go again! Actually, I am beta testing a sim at the moment and need to get back to work. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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