what's the ultimate sub build? :)

[derrickdj1]

Ported system will win the 15 Hz and higher output by 12-15 db.  That is the same as adding around 6 more sealed sub, WoW.  Full excursion will happen with ported subs just like with sealed.  The difference will be the voltage to get there.  Now, extension is differnt between the two systems.  I switch from majority sealed to ported for the output.  You would think a tornado is trying to tear off some of the doors in the HT, like the movie Twister, lol.

[CECAA850]

4. I wonder how much you're shooting yourself in the foot by limiting excursion in home theater. Wondering about this with ported as well. I've just now got mine to where real low stuff will shake the room. The stampede scene in the intro to Transformers 4 for example, when the dinos are coming at you, my floor is shaking. I like that. You replace my 18's that are being slapped silly with a power sipping single little 15 that's barely moving and what's going to happen to that?

 

You shouldn't concern yourself with cone movement as it relates to a tactile feel rather dB at certain frequencies.  In that regard, horns won't give you the infrasonic feel in movies like a bunch of DR's will but will play cleaner in the frequencies that they do reproduce.

 

As far as the article is concerned, they're just showing what Paul already knew.  Horn loading increases efficiency.  Efficiency allows the drivers to move less for a given spl vs non horn loaded drivers.  Drivers that move less create less distortion than drivers that move more.

[Paducah Home Theater]

Ported system will win the 15 Hz and higher output by 12-15 db.

I can't get WinISD to save custom subs and I'm not sure what room gain would do, but do you think a 20 hz tuning could get me to 15 with some ported ultimaxes? I don't care much about going lower than that.

[derrickdj1]

Their is a low to consider for tactile feel.  For example, particle velocity at the mlp, phase, resonance of the floor, riser, resonance of the furniture.  Two equal systems  in the same size room my differ in regards to tactile feel.  Download the VibSensor to get an ideal of what is happening in your room.

 

Just seen the above post Metro, what is the room size and longest dimension?

Edited November 10, 2015 by derrickdj1

[Paducah Home Theater]

horns won't give you the infrasonic feel in movies like a bunch of DR's will

I don't want to give this up at all. I'm considering ported but I still don't want to give that up with ported. If I need to go with more sealed subs to get this then that's what I'll do. IF any solution would make my beloved stampede and earthquake feel go bye bye then it's off the table. If anything I want more of that. This greatly adds to the excitement and I can't see getting rid of it and calling it an upgrade.

Edited November 10, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Paducah Home Theater]

Their is a low to consider for tactile feel.  For example, particle velocity at the mlp, phase, resonance of the floor, riser, resonance of the furniture.  Two equal systems  in the same size room my differ in regards to tactile feel.  Download the VibSensor to get an ideal of what is happening in your room.

 

Just seen the above post Metro, what is the room size and longest dimension?

It's a 15x20 room with 9' ceilings, screen is on the long wall, back of seats are 4' from the other long wall, floor is first story on well supported I-beams so it's harder to shake than a suspended floor. For rock concert blu rays I had the best luck with my sealed ultimax's under the screen. I've had Klipsch R-115SW's in the same location and they didn't sound all that hot. I moved those behind the seats and this opened them up for some reason. Ultimaxes sound bad there, at least crossed over at 80. Not sure if any of this is relevant.

Edited November 10, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[derrickdj1]

The longest dimension of the room will determine the amount of cabin gain.  For example : the speed of sound/2* L of the room.

 

1130 ft/s2/2 x30 ft =18.3  That means cabin gain will start at 18 Hz and be up 12 db by 9 Hz which is a 2nd order gain of 12 db.  Not much help with a vented system tune to 20 Hz without some PEQ.  My longest dimension is a little longer than 35 ft which is a long and little cabin gain.  That is where the I Nukes or a Mini DSP come in handy!

[Paducah Home Theater]

The longest dimension of the room will determine the amount of cabin gain.  For example : the speed of sound/2* L of the room.

 

1130 ft/s2/2 x30 ft =18.3  That means cabin gain will start at 18 Hz and be up 12 db by 9 Hz which is a 2nd order gain of 12 db.  Not much help with a vented system tune to 20 Hz without some PEQ.  My longest dimension is a little longer than 35 ft which is a long and little cabin gain.  That is where the I Nukes or a Mini DSP come in handy!

It's 20', not 30, result should be 28 hz. With the setup I have now, I have lots of room gain around 40 hz for whatever reason.

Edited November 10, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Nismo]

 

I don't know if you've heard (or felt) a Danley. My wife seems to be thawing where I can bring one in and use it in lieu of a table as a support for the TV. I think I could live with the raising the TV up a bit.

 

I know people use those big subs to hold TV's and audio gear, but I really don't see how the equipment would last.  It seems to me like putting your gear on paint mixer, you would think it would shake everything to pieces, literally.

+++

 

I have a question for those of you who have heard the horn loaded subs.  How do they sound for "everyday" audio?  For instance if you have them hooked to your living room setup?  Do they have they have to be "loaded" and played loud to get that great sound you guys talk about, or can they be played at lower levels and still give a nice full sound?

 

I know I haven't asked my question very well, I lack the words to describe sound.

 

 

Not all cabinets are created equal. Here's a perfectly still (18" x 23.5" x 22.5" ... 122lb) sub @ 117dB

 

[Paducah Home Theater]

Not all cabinets are created equal.

Just dual opposed, they are all still like this, doesn't really mean it's a higher quality build. Does makes me want to consider doing this though, was asking some other guys about it recently and was even drawing up designs. But, given the layout, I'd either have one set of subs flat against the wall, or one firing into the side of my towers, and I don't know what kind of weird things will result from doing that. I probably have enough room to have dual clamshell which should give the same effect, like where the cones shot out of an open slot:

 

 

Edited November 10, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Nismo]

I know what it is... I posted it. But if you still think all cabinets are created equal.... good luck with that.

[Quiet_Hollow]

1. Notice they don't include the important stuff for home theater. The lowest they measure at is 40 hz. The fun hasn't even started at that point.

Measuring at 40 Hz vs 20 Hz doesn't matter. The data is differential. Same driver. The really important thing is "they" sampled above, through, and below the intended passbands.

 

2. They are only measuring what's coming out of the port on the vented system.

The article has a picture provided, and also a reference to an AES paper on the method of measurement. Pretty cut and dry.

 

Makes me wonder if this is intellectually dishonest somehow, plus I'm curious as to how this compares to a sealed system.

    "They" are spelled out in the first sentence of the paper. Sealed systems are even worse in this regard. Tons of research available on the topic, but not applicable in the context of this paper.

 

4. I wonder how much you're shooting yourself in the foot by limiting excursion in home theater. Wondering about this with ported as well. ......You replace my 18's that are being slapped silly with a power sipping single little 15 that's barely moving and what's going to happen to that?

No one is limiting excursion in that context, and everyone's goal is simply improved sound. At these frequencies, more is better by any right, but it's all too easy to discount the horn for how much more.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Quiet_Hollow

[Paducah Home Theater]

if you still think all cabinets are created equal.... good luck with that.

 

Nope, some are made out of baltic birch and Kreg screws.    If you want to see some nicely built cabinets, go see JTR.  

Edited November 10, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Nismo]

You were the one who was confused . Not me. LOL

[Paducah Home Theater]

You were the one who was confused . Not me. LOL

 

All I'm saying is that the stillness of a dual-opposed design isn't evidence of a superior build quality.  That design in general is just inherently really good about this issue.  It also has inherent flaws, like, well, you can point one sub where you want it, but the other goes... elsewhere.  I'm sure PSA is nice but I'm wanting to take it to the next level as well as build it myself out of superior materials.  

Edited November 10, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Nismo]

It doesn't exclude it either. so rather a moot point. I was demonstrating to wvu80 examples where one could place items on their subs should they wish... which was his question. But you are funny. Just a month ago you were mocking those who purchased $1500 subs... yet today to praise an example that cost $4000. 

[Paducah Home Theater]

Just a month ago you were mocking those who purchased $1500 subs... yet today to praise an example that cost $4000. 

 

They're built in a superior manner, no doubt there.  Can you build something yourself that rivals it for a fraction of the price?  Yeah you probably could, which is what I'm trying to do.  I never said I was going to spend 2-4 grand on two sealed 18's, that's silliness.  

 

JL Audio Gotham's are awesome as well.  They're also 13 grand to get a couple of them.  You won't find me telling a normal person they should lean in that direction.  

 

Anyway, while I appreciate technical ideas and debates about designs, please go troll elsewhere.  The shallow *** for tat crap gets exhausting and you get your feelings hurt over pretty much everything.  

Edited November 10, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Nismo]

My feelings are not hurt... you give yourself far too much credit. (lol) You're just a walking contradiction & I'm happy to point it out.

 

edit: You can't even get the "troll thing" worked out.  My discussion was with wvu80 (not you) but as always you made it about you. You troll every post I make... even to claim you can outrun a T-Rex.  

Edited November 10, 2015 by Nismo

[Paducah Home Theater]

 

There's also the issue with room modes with nulls and voids. Curious as to how a folded horn handles that situation. Multiple subs are known to cancel and smooth them out.

 

Not differently than any other sub.  Multiples are still the best way to handle that.

 

 

It's my understanding that due to the quarter wavelength stuff, you literally have to be a certain distance away from the driver before you can hear it, and because of this, with the lower bass frequencies, you're actually hearing more bass from what's bouncing off the walls than what's coming out of the sub itself.  

 

It's also been my understanding that folded horns and transmission lines take advantage of this, with the sound waves bouncing around in the box over a longer distance before they come out, so what comes out of the horn is pure bass (for lack of a better term) from the get go, which is particularly useful in large concert venues and outdoor use.  

 

If this is true, just seems like its handling of room modes with a smallish number of subs would be better than the direct radiating types.  It also seems that this would boost decay times, and if so, this may make music seem less tight, or could at least be measured and shown that the sound is lingering longer than it ought to.  Even ported boxes do this as opposed to a sealed one, so why wouldn't a horn be even worse about it?  

 

Of course that's just theoretical based on an over-simplified understanding of what's going on too.  

Edited November 10, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Paducah Home Theater]

You're just a walking contradiction & I'm happy to point it out.

 

The only reason I said anything about the $1,600 sub purchase example was because you can get a pro amp, a DSP, build your own superior box out of superior materials, and have superior drivers, for less money.  Every DIY enthusiast says similar things non-stop.  When money is part of the equation and you have the ability to build, DIY nearly always wins.  To their credit, PSA has in fact been making big strides in closing this gap.  

 

At least with JTR they take the superior enclosure out of the equation, if you're looking for a box like the ones they build, you're not going to do it better on your own.  You can argue the bang for the buck situation but you're not going to build a better box.  They use thick baltic birch and are able to feed the things a ton of power without them flying apart.  They're simply really nicely built boxes that's done the right way.  I fail to see how that's a contradiction.  

Edited November 10, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters