CECAA850 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 A stack of 18"s still will not sound like a horn any way you place them. You'd be surprised Granted no design has everything and some are more turned off by distortion than others including myself but I'm willing to sacrifice a few Hz for a far better sound. Depending on the horn you could be missing an octave or more. Not a huge issue with music but for HT it's very noticeable when it's not there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) Hard to see the advantages for home theater when by their own example, you only get like 1 db more than a single ported box at 20 hz with the ported having a more predictable response and less of a ski slope response below 25 hz. For the space involved you could just add a second ported box and be about at the level it is at 25 hz and 20 hz will be louder. Edited November 9, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 A stack of 18"s still will not sound like a horn any way you place them. You'd be surprised Harmonic overtones will still shine through not to mention subpar midbass attack. Really not a fair comparison. Granted no design has everything and some are more turned off by distortion than others including myself but I'm willing to sacrifice a few Hz for a far better sound. Depending on the horn you could be missing an octave or more. Not a huge issue with music but for HT it's very noticeable when it's not there. I don't listen to home theater so its a big deal to me & probably many others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Hard to see the advantages for home theater when by their own example, you only get like 1 db more than a single ported box at 20 hz with the ported having a more predictable response and less of a ski slope response below 25 hz. If you hear some it will click, frequency response is not everything. Compare the LaScala, K-horn, Jubilee, MCM to others in the Klipsch lineup, on paper they don't look so hot but the proof is in the pudding. Ask around, its a big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) With the UM 18's distortion number so low, It is a hard argument at best. Trade-offs are inherent with all the designs. Metro, a couple of tall horns could work but size is the trade off. I wish we could help more but, without hearing the system it is all guess work figuring out what would work best. I know a lot music people love the IB design and it is out of the way. I know, sometime, I feel like I am sitting in the middle of Stonehenge, lol. Edited November 9, 2015 by derrickdj1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 I mean it kind of interests me but regardless of the size issue, my biggest weakness is sub-25 hz with the two 18's that I have. I can't see going to a system that inherently drops like a rock below 25 hz and call it an upgrade. If I'm going to build a monster to put in the corners I'll build a g-horn. Until then I need more 18-20 hz output. I'm not convinced that a 15" horn is the best solution for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Any of you builders think that double thick baltic birch everything is overkill or just about right? Last boxes I only had a double thick baffle and it's the only thing that's perfectly solid, even with hardwood bracing. Of course there's granite going on top too which is overkill in itself but it should look coool. Or maybe just two half inch thick pieces, 1" of baltic birch everywhere, nice round measurements. Edited November 10, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Depends on the size of the cabinet, normally with 3/4 BB i would brace within every foot. Best not to use 2 x 1/2" layers, you would think its stronger that way but its not, its best to use 3/4" ply or if you prefer & can find it 1" stock. I use plywood bracing and brace the braces myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 I have no idea where to get 1" other than online then have it freight shipped. I can get 5x5 3/4" locally or drive an hour and get 4x8 sheets at Menards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Menards BB is junk, go through a local lumberyard and be sure its even layers and not a thin outer veneer. 3/4 panels are fine if braced properly & lighter too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) The local place claims Menards is Chinese but other people dismiss that as an urband legend. Who knows. If I just give up and port the ultimax's, use 3/4" and a double baffle, a 48x21x21 will net me 8 cubic feet, plus 0.26 driver displacement, 1.6 port displacement, .1 for angling the slotted port's right angle, and leave .25 or so for bracing. That's with a 19.5x2.5 internal sized port that's 34" long with the driver on one end and a slotted port on the other, which should be tuned to 20 hz. Should be able to cut the granite for like a 98x23 for a 1" overhang on each side, but I guess two 49x23 pieces would be easier to carry. Of course if I have to use 5x5 sheets, that's going to be a bunch of waste. What am I going to do with that extra 60x12" on each sheet? Would be easier with 4x8 sheets. Edited November 10, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) I don't know if you've heard (or felt) a Danley. My wife seems to be thawing where I can bring one in and use it in lieu of a table as a support for the TV. I think I could live with the raising the TV up a bit. I know people use those big subs to hold TV's and audio gear, but I really don't see how the equipment would last. It seems to me like putting your gear on paint mixer, you would think it would shake everything to pieces, literally. +++ I have a question for those of you who have heard the horn loaded subs. How do they sound for "everyday" audio? For instance if you have them hooked to your living room setup? Do they have they have to be "loaded" and played loud to get that great sound you guys talk about, or can they be played at lower levels and still give a nice full sound? I know I haven't asked my question very well, I lack the words to describe sound. Edited November 10, 2015 by wvu80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I don't know if you've heard (or felt) a Danley. My wife seems to be thawing where I can bring one in and use it in lieu of a table as a support for the TV. I think I could live with the raising the TV up a bit. I know people use those big subs to hold TV's and audio gear, but I really don't see how the equipment would last. It seems to me like putting your gear on paint mixer, you would think it would shake everything to pieces, literally. Not sure about the Danley models but the THT & TT models are very solid, had my turntable on the THT for some time with no issues at all. Once you pump up the volume and the house starts shaking its a different story but any object is subject in that case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 It seems to me like putting your gear on paint mixer, you would think it would shake everything to pieces, literally. The cabinetry doesn't move until everything else around it does.....mainly the concrete below it. At the same SPL, the power required for a typical box sub would have it dancing clear across the room, if not blowing it apart at the seams. If you haven't physically experienced a correctly implemented horn sub, then there's no basis for comparison. Shouldn't have to debate the merits of horn loading on a forum that bears the name of a significant pioneer on the topic. MLO - see also: http://www.hps4000.com/pages/special/woofer_distortion.pdf In an FLH application, TIM distortion is 15-25 dB less for the same 15" driver. Worse yet for smaller drivers. That's a huge pile. Regardless, it sounds like you made up your mind the day you bought the granite....so here's to that . Look forward to pics. I'd have recommended a Genelec 7073A for simplicity sake, but hey. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cradeldorf Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I'm a firm believer that there is such a thing as too much bass.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Shouldn't have to debate the merits of horn loading on a forum that bears the name of a significant pioneer on the topic No one's debating that. My point was that using multiple drivers lowers distortion when compared to a SINGLE driver just like horn loading lowers distortion when compared to a SINGLE driver. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 There's also the issue with room modes with nulls and voids. Curious as to how a folded horn handles that situation. Multiple subs are known to cancel and smooth them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 There's also the issue with room modes with nulls and voids. Curious as to how a folded horn handles that situation. Multiple subs are known to cancel and smooth them out. Not differently than any other sub. Multiples are still the best way to handle that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeskizzle Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) I mean it kind of interests me but regardless of the size issue, my biggest weakness is sub-25 hz with the two 18's that I have. I can't see going to a system that inherently drops like a rock below 25 hz and call it an upgrade. If I'm going to build a monster to put in the corners I'll build a g-horn. Until then I need more 18-20 hz output. I'm not convinced that a 15" horn is the best solution for that. I see that you are in western Kentucky...whenever the AVS Forum decides to get up and running, I'll post a link to where Josh Ricci is selling his two original GJallarhorns loaded with the LMS Ultra for $1150 a piece, $2300 for both. He's in Louisville. Edit: http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/11-equipment-for-sale/page-4 Scroll down and you'll see Ricci's post the Ghorns along with a few other things. Edited November 10, 2015 by homeskizzle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) It seems to me like putting your gear on paint mixer, you would think it would shake everything to pieces, literally. That's why I reserved a piece of granite. Not putting electronics on top though. Shouldn't have to debate the merits of horn loading on a forum that bears the name of a significant pioneer on the topic. I know just enough about quarter wavelength stuff to not doubt that it works well. I've heard car systems that leveraged the basic idea and they were pulling insane DB's for the equipment they had. MLO - see also: http://www.hps4000.com/pages/special/woofer_distortion.pdf I guess what I'm curious about here is: 1. Notice they don't include the important stuff for home theater. The lowest they measure at is 40 hz. The fun hasn't even started at that point. Even then though, that's the lowest measurement they had, 135 db it was exactly the same. It got worse with higher frequencies. 2. They are only measuring what's coming out of the port on the vented system. Makes me wonder if this is intellectually dishonest somehow, plus I'm curious as to how this compares to a sealed system. 3. Who the hell listens to 60 hz at 140 decibels outside of SPL competitors in a car? I typically listen to movies at like -25 with a 6 db boost in the subs. 4. I wonder how much you're shooting yourself in the foot by limiting excursion in home theater. Wondering about this with ported as well. I've just now got mine to where real low stuff will shake the room. The stampede scene in the intro to Transformers 4 for example, when the dinos are coming at you, my floor is shaking. I like that. You replace my 18's that are being slapped silly with a power sipping single little 15 that's barely moving and what's going to happen to that? Regardless, it sounds like you made up your mind the day you bought the granite. I haven't cut it yet, it's on reserve, but I have a weeks of vacation coming up on Thanksgiving where I'm working on house stuff so it'll probably get cut later this week or next week. They're going to get mad at me if they have to hold on to it for much longer. Edited November 10, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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