what's the ultimate sub build? :)

[Nismo]

Again my post had nothing to do with you.... until you made it about you. Your man crush is starting to get awkward.

 

[jason str]

 

You're just a walking contradiction & I'm happy to point it out.

 

The only reason I said anything about the $1,600 sub purchase example was because you can get a pro amp, a DSP, build your own superior box out of superior materials, and have superior drivers, for less money.  Every DIY enthusiast says similar things non-stop.  When money is part of the equation and you have the ability to build, DIY nearly always wins.  To their credit, PSA has in fact been making big strides in closing this gap.  

 

At least with JTR they take the superior enclosure out of the equation, if you're looking for a box like the ones they build, you're not going to do it better on your own.  You can argue the bang for the buck situation but you're not going to build a better box.  They use thick baltic birch and are able to feed the things a ton of power without them flying apart.  They're simply really nicely built boxes that's done the right way.  I fail to see how that's a contradiction.  

 

 

Nothing wrong with being a fanboy but saying one of the forum members or anyone for that matter could not build a better cabinet is just bullshit in the most laughable way, many here have tried to help you but it falls upon deaf ears.

 

Build what you think is best and ignore the ones who have spent years or even decades learning what to do and what not to do.

 

Good luck to you.

[Paducah Home Theater]

Nothing wrong with being a fanboy but saying one of the forum members or anyone for that matter could not build a better cabinet is just bullshit in the most laughable way

I specifically said if you wanted an enclosure like one of those they offer. We're not talking sealed vs. horns with that statement, I'm talking about building the same basic idea. I'm sure you can build some nice boxes but I'm curious as to how you would build one like one of theirs but significantly and demonstrably better in quality and strength without going well into the overkill zone.

And I'm really not even a fan, those things are really pricey. I wouldn't buy them.

 

Build what you think is best and ignore the ones who have spent years or even decades learning what to do and what not to do.

It's not that I ignore, it's that I pay attention.

I paid attention to the charts from the designer himself that show a ski slope response below 25 hz.

I paid attention to the lack of data most anywhere for 20 hz and below as well as the admission that you’re going to sacrifice response in this area when I question it.

I paid attention to the comment from an long time builder saying horns aren’t going to give the tactile subsonic feel that I want.

I paid attention to the sizes, that show even the smallest one is going to stick out into my room well over 50% further than I had hoped.

I paid attention to your own comment that said you prefer the subs to be up front, rather than in the back corners where they would actually fit, which is exactly what I’m struggling with due to room layout.

I paid attention to the comment that showed I’m still going to have to have a room full of the things to smooth out the nulls and peaks in room modes, that they offer no advantages here.

I apologize if the summation of these remarks makes me skeptical of the idea that a 15” folded horn is the end game for home theater subs. I'm not ignoring them. More than anything, it simply won't fit up front without looking ridiculous. I have zero ideas as to how I could ever get around that. I'll probably even build one just to play around with but I don't see how it could ever integrate nicely in my HT room. Maybe I should make a coffee table for the living room...

Edited November 10, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[CECAA850]

I paid attention to the lack of data most anywhere for 20 hz and below as well as the admission that you’re going to sacrifice response in this area when I question it.

 

Horn 101 dictates that the extension of the sub is dictated by the length of the horn.  The shorter the horn, the higher the extension, conversely, the longer the horn, the lower the extension.  The length of the THT horn puts the box enclosure (extension) tune at 25Hz.  The Length of the horn in the Cinema F-20 comes in at 22Hz.  Jason can correct me if I'm wrong but I think these are the numbers.  Room gain will get you lower extension just like it will with other sub configurations but these are the numbers you'll start with.

 

The largest horn I've ever built was a tapped horn tuned to 17 Hz and it was a BIG mamma jamma.  I believe it was about 9 cu. ft. larger than the F-20 which is a big box.

[Paducah Home Theater]

Do you know the technical differences between a folded horn and transmission line? My friend's jeep is ridiculously loud with only a single 10, like take your breath away loud, at least at 40 hz. 30 and below, not so much.

[jason str]

Copy & paste from your wants & needs on your first post.

 

goals:
1. very little compromises without spending WAY too much.

 

No better bang for the buck using a good horn(s).

2. effortless subsonic bass that doesn't bottom out...

 

Large DR's spewing out distortion is not what i would call effortless bass.

 

3. without compromising super tight super fast chest beating kick drums.

 

Good horns provide this in plentiful amounts.
4. as close to zero box resonances or vibrations as possible. no coloration.

 

If its built right you should have no problems.
5. want to hang with or surpass a JTR Noesis S2 while spending less. End result will look nearly identical and probably constructed similarly.

 

If you want something identical buy a JTR for less used.
6. needs to visually look good with a professional finish and not like a typical man cave offering

 

Finishes are subjective and can be changed easy.
7. not too much power consumption, could have a dedicated 20 amp circuit but don't really want to go beyond that although I could.

 

Big DR's & low power consumption is not going to happen any way you slice it.

[CECAA850]

Do you know the technical differences between a folded horn and transmission line? My friend's jeep is ridiculously loud with only a single 10, like take your breath away loud, at least at 40 hz. 30 and below, not so much.

 

Apples and oranges.  A folded horn uses the horn principle to "amplify" the output of the driver.  A transmission line uses the box pathway to put the rear wave of the driver in phase with the front to increase output.  Some people actually dampen the box so much that the rear wave is almost inaudible making the driver seem like it's in an Infinite Baffle.

[Paducah Home Theater]

The original coloration comments were due to some ported 15's that were ringing with seemingly higher pitched harmonics when pushed hard on rock concerts, not the low LFE, but with bass guitar mostly as well as kick drums to some extent. Since then I have heard that if you make a ported box a little too small for the driver in question this might happen. Unsure as to if there are other things that may contribute to that sound but I didn't like it.

Edited November 10, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[CECAA850]

The original coloration comments were due to some ported 15's that were ringing with seemingly higher pitched harmonics when pushed hard on rock concerts, not the low LFE, but with bass guitar mostly as well as kick drums to some extent. Since then I have heard that if you make a ported box a little too small for the driver in question this might happen. Unsure as to if there are other things that may contribute to that sound but I didn't like it.

 

 

If by ringing you mean smeared, it's possible you had a phase issue with your mains especially if it was happening around your crossover frequency. 

[Paducah Home Theater]

If by ringing you mean smeared, it's possible you had a phase issue with your mains especially if it was happening around your crossover frequency.

No by ringing I mean that at high volumes, you could feed it a 60-80'ish hz tone from a bass guitar, and it would produce an obnoxious loud tone that did not resemble pretty music and possibly had higher pitched harmonics, like there was a box resonance or something. Coloration is the best way I can describe the sound, it was very localizable. I've seen other people complain about similar issues, they claim it's artifacts coming out of the port. I'm not sure. My sealed 18's were much more neutral at high volumes.

Edited November 10, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Paducah Home Theater]

A transmission line uses the box pathway to put the rear wave of the driver in phase with the front to increase output.

I thought a folded horn did the exact same thing for some reason.

[jason str]

 

Nothing wrong with being a fanboy but saying one of the forum members or anyone for that matter could not build a better cabinet is just bullshit in the most laughable way

I specifically said if you wanted an enclosure like one of those they offer. We're not talking sealed vs. horns with that statement, I'm talking about building the same basic idea. I'm sure you can build some nice boxes but I'm curious as to how you would build one like one of theirs but significantly and demonstrably better in quality and strength without going well into the overkill zone.

 

As long as its built solid and not just an empty cube like most mass market subs.

 

Quality & strength is something most builders strive for and not just worry about extra needed materials & labor costs like the 99% out there.

 

And I'm really not even a fan, those things are really pricey. I wouldn't buy them.

 

Then stop dreaming about them and get with the sawdust already.

 

Build what you think is best and ignore the ones who have spent years or even decades learning what to do and what not to do.

It's not that I ignore, it's that I pay attention.

 

Pay more attention & read between the lines if needed.

I paid attention to the charts from the designer himself that show a ski slope response below 25 hz.

 

The ski slope you claim is room dependent, if these were for outside use then thats a different story.

I paid attention to the lack of data most anywhere for 20 hz and below as well as the admission that you’re going to sacrifice response in this area when I question it.

 

Paying attention to the numbers is where you are lost, if all subs were rated the exact same in the exact same surroundings it would be easy but its not the case so don't judge everything by the numbers they don't mean as much as you would think.

I paid attention to the comment from an long time builder saying horns aren’t going to give the tactile subsonic feel that I want.

 

Not sure who you are takling about but most of these big horn subs with a few exceptions are made to reach to 20 Hz or below in room.

I paid attention to the sizes, that show even the smallest one is going to stick out into my room well over 50% further than I had hoped.

 

We all have hopes, just make some room, get rid of that armchair or table that is not really important.

I paid attention to your own comment that said you prefer the subs to be up front, rather than in the back corners where they would actually fit, which is exactly what I’m struggling with due to room layout.

 

You can do it.

I paid attention to the comment that showed I’m still going to have to have a room full of the things to smooth out the nulls and peaks in room modes, that they offer no advantages here.

All rooms are different, trial & error is work but in the end worth every minute.

I apologize if the summation of these remarks makes skeptical of the idea that a 15” folded horn is the end game for home theater subs. I'm not ignoring them. More than anything, it simply won't fit up front without looking ridiculous. I have zero ideas as to how I could ever get around that. I'll probably even build one just to play around with but I don't see how it could ever integrate nicely in my HT room. Maybe I should make a coffee table for the living room...

 

Built alot of subs in the past 20 + years for home & car and the folded horns are by far the best i heard, nothing is built without compromise of course but if low distortion clean bass is what youre after i say go for it or at least go out and listen to a close forum members horns before you pull the trigger. Why be unhappy or have to do things two or three times.

 

Coffee table is a good way to hide a big sub.

 

[CECAA850]

 

A transmission line uses the box pathway to put the rear wave of the driver in phase with the front to increase output.

I thought a folded horn did the exact same thing for some reason.

 

 

 

The F-20 and THT are FLH's (front loaded horns).  The driver sits in a sealed chamber and fires into the small end of the horn.

[Paducah Home Theater]

We all have hopes, just make some room, get rid of that armchair or table that is not really important.

I could physically fit one. My screen would bounce reflections all over it too. Unsure as to how being unsymmetrical would sound as well.

[derrickdj1]

This thread is getting nice discussions.  I would not be concerned with using 3/4 BB or MDF.  I has be proven many that either will make a good box.  The strong output that was mention around 40 is most like related to standing waves in the room.  Metro, Ported should be fine with room gain starting at 28 Hz.  You should be able to get flat to 15 Hz with good output.

 

DSP is need to mate the subs with the room.  Just throwing subs in the room may/most like not get you the desired results.  Coloration of the sound can occur but is not a major problem with most of the subs that I have owned, ID, store brought, and DIY.  SQ of direct radiators, sealed, vented and horn subs can be argued all day.  Great SQ can be achieved with all of the above.

 

The key is to pick something that you like and that will work in the room.  See it to completion, build it, setup, integrated with the system, control standing wave and room modes, minimize bass resonance and you will get great SQ, lack of coloration, good output and extension.

 

JTR, PSA, SVS, ect all make good sub but their methods and not associated with magic.  What I am saying is may DYI subs are just as good if not better for the money spent.  There is more than one way to skin a cat and all are available options.  If REW seems to complex, Omnimic is the easy alternative to manage the required DSP.  Many people bash Berhinger but, the I Nuke is a powerful amp, not due to the watts but, the DSP.  I have posted may graphs this past year or two that demonstrate this.

[derrickdj1]

Sorry, this was a double post that I deleted due to poor internet on the road, lol.

Edited November 11, 2015 by derrickdj1

[Paducah Home Theater]

I would not be concerned with using 3/4 BB or MDF.  I has be proven many that either will make a good box.

 

All I know is that when I work with baltic birch for awhile then switch back to MDF, it feels like junk that has been conjured up by Dusty McFlopsalot.  Baltic is way stronger, nicer to work with, and easier to finish.  Only reason I mentioned JTR is because they share my love of baltic, using 24mm 18 ply and they still brace the hell out of it.  Only bad thing for home use seems to be the one thing that makes it great for pro audio use, which is its lighter weight.  My sealed 18's weigh nearly 130 pounds, each, and the boxes can still vibrate back and forth a little while on carpet when they get going good.  The added density of MDF may help with this a little, not sure.  Spikey feet plus granite will hopefully fix that right up though.  This granite piece I'm getting should be nearly 300 pounds just by itself, I doubt it's going anywhere at a fast rate.  That thing is making me nervous more than anything, I got a great deal on it and only have one chance to cut it.  Can't just casually go get another piece of it like I can with MDF if it doesn't turn out like I want.  It'll be cut within the next week or so one way or another.  

 

My current baltic boxes have made me wonder if I should stick with sealed.  Seems like a waste, I have a bunch of money and time in them, could easily put them behind my seats.  I'll likely never get back what they cost in materials alone if I sell them.  Not sure what I'd do with them.  

Edited November 11, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[CECAA850]

Baltic is way stronger, nicer to work with, and easier to finish. 

 

Easier to finish?  You have end grain to deal with and it's not as flat as MDF.  MDF is also more inert and doesn't warp.  On the minus side, MDF is heavier and the saw dust is nastier.  There's quite a difference between your garden variety MDF and cabinet grade as well.

[Paducah Home Theater]

Easier to finish?  You have end grain to deal with

Those iron-on birch strips work nice enough. I've done this on desks.

I've also sanded then put a few coats of primer on then sanded again and it's sealed up. Did this on book cases. Then I kicked myself for not using the iron-on edges.

I've also simply left the edges raw. Baltic birch is void free plus has a tight grain comparatively due to the slow growth because of where it's grown, so you don't get chunks missing and other nastiness like with normal plywood. You can sand the edges then put clear polyurethane on it and it actually looks really neat since it's striped. Did this on a bass guitar cabinet, I'll take a picture soon. The whole thing really only revolves around whether you want to see the stripes or not. You can just embrace them.

On my sub cabinets I just painted right over the top of them with little sanding, just not a big deal due to the tight grain.

 

it's not as flat as MDF. MDF is also more inert and doesn't warp.

I've never seen a warped piece of baltic birch. This is one of the reasons I like it so much. Normal plywood, sure. Baltic, not so much. Everything I've worked with has seemed very stable and straight.

 

There's quite a difference between your garden variety MDF and cabinet grade as well.

I guess I've never seen cabinet grade MDF. Whatever the standard stuff at Home Depot as well as what comes in the DIY Audio Group's flat packs is is all I've used.

As for my original statement, if anything, finishing the edges on that stuff is worse than baltic in my opinion. When you have a butt joint with at least normal MDF, that's harder to blend in and look solid with paint. Polyurethane is impossible with MDF. Baltic birch sands WAY better. I just like working with it better.

Edited November 11, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[CECAA850]

I've never seen a warped piece of baltic birch.

 

I have some at home.

 

While researching a method of straightening it, I found something that actually works.  Wood warps when one side dries out more than the other.  The dry side shrinks slightly in relation to the other creating the typical warped arc.  I read that if you place the concave side down in the grass on a sunny day, it will straighten it.  The sun dries out the top, shrinking it and the moisture from the grass is pulled into the concave side facing down expanding it.  It works surprisingly well.

Edited November 11, 2015 by CECAA850