CECAA850 Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Would Klipsch approve of ultra sonic cleaning of its crossovers with water and sound waves? Just wondering. I never tried it. Aren't most of them on wooden boards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Would Klipsch approve of ultra sonic cleaning of its crossovers with water and sound waves? Just wondering. I never tried it. Aren't most of them on wooden boards? Also, it seems like rust is the enemy much of the time on the autoformers and some of the other steel parts. With autoformers I have found sandpaper primer and paint work well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Axial wound dry capacitors aren't designed to be submerged into liquid. They are resistant to moisture, which isn't the same as being waterproof. Hermetically sealed types would be fine, unless they're old and leaking. Someone brought up the wood, which is certainly a problem. I still don't understand how the Mica types survive this process, but I know absolutely nothing about how they're constructed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 In reality no capacitor is 100% sealed... heck many types of electrolytic caps are vented! while hermetically sealed have the closest chance of surviving the abuse they are not absolutely guaranteed to be water tight. Just like no vacuum tube is 100% sealed hence the getter and associated silvering to clean the environment... all materials expand and contract at different rates with temperature change no way getting around it. So 100% seal is not achievable. Another huge misconception about capacitors in general is in reference to them leaking.... electrically it has nothing to do with something leaky in or out of the sealed body...It has to do with them leaking voltage. When failing electrolytic caps leak DC to ground, coupling caps leak DC to the next stage. Electrolytic caps are suppose to take AC to ground while blocking the DC from ground. Coupling caps are suppose to allow the AC through while blocking DC... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Uh, a hermetically sealed capacitor is fully protected - ain't nothing getting in there. The whole idea of everything working just fine after the drying out process is intriguing, because it indicates that these parts aren't damaged by exposure to liquid. One would think that the parts would just plain fail, not die a slow painful death. I thought about the electrolytics too, but here's the thing, I researched this seemingly crazy thing they're doing and it's an accepted process. As long as they issue a good warranty, I guess it doesn't really matter! It cracks me up how the real experts in the field go MIA when threads like this pop up. Neither one of us are EEs, nor are we intimately involved in the design and manufacture of capacitors. Now, Mark stopped by, and didn't take issue with it. Dennis will normally show up with his ball bat when his stupidity meter starts going off. So, that leaves Gil, John Warren, and a few I'm forgetting about. At any rare, the process either works or it doesn't -- it apparently works. The first post was obviously promotional, but like I said, forums are filled with posts written by people singing the praises or "promoting" an item(s) they want others to consider for purchase. Self-promotion may be distasteful to some, but as long as it isn't an obnoxious or veiled attempt at solicitation - I don't see what the big deal is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Just like no vacuum tube is 100% sealed hence the getter and associated silvering to clean the environment... They are 100% when they leave the factory. The getter is there for contaminants left in the manufacturing process. If not, they would last about as long as a light bulb with a broken seal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 I could understand MAYBE soaking a failed unit, or a total refurbish that is known to be dead and not working and that most parts will be changed out. But I am not a believer of taking a known good unit that simply needs a cleaning and submerging in water. I don't care if it's an accepted process...............not with my gear. It actually sounds insane to me. Tube sockets filled with water? Not mine buddy. What I think is that they've figured a way to "get away" with it by baking the item afterward............to save the labor of doing it right with electrical cleaner and good old elbow grease. Terry DeWick sent all 5 of my McIntosh rebuilds back shining like new cars inside and out. I know he didn't soak any of them and it didn't cost me very much at all IMHO. Craig has my LK-72 right now...........and when I saw this thread I immediately told him he better not try that with my stuff. You guys who accept the process send yours into the tub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Just like no vacuum tube is 100% sealed hence the getter and associated silvering to clean the environment...They are 100% when they leave the factory. The getter is there for contaminants left in the manufacturing process. If not, they would last about as long as a light bulb with a broken seal. They maybe pretty close or "near" to 100% sealed when the vacuum is pulled, but the first time they are put through a hot/cold cycle the near 100% is degraded......it is not possible to 100% permanent seal metal pins to glass....the getter is to clean the residual contamination after manufacturer yes, but it is used up by the continued contamination from the fact that they are not 100% sealed that is why the silvering shrinks with age... the worse the seal the quicker it shrinks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Uh, a hermetically sealed capacitor is fully protected - ain't nothing getting in there. Nothing is forever or perfect you are fooling yourself... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Our company uses the process on PC boards and other critical parts. I just can't picture doing what I saw in that video (in this thread) with a working tube amp just to clean it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 with a working tube amp just to clean it. at least it wasn't plugged in... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 (edited) OK while many have been speculating .. I've decided to actually do some data research and based on what I have seen so far as long as the capacitor is still in good mechanical condition (ie: various sealing methods) then they should not be damaged by cleaning if due diligence has been done in choosing of all the right ultrasonic cleaner parameters (ie: set points/features/cleaning solution) and proper drying methods afterwards. If a capacitor isn't in good mechanical condition it should be replaced during rebuilding. Note: IMHO a good rebuild should also include replacing and possibly resizing all electrolytic capacitors so the cleaning of the old one's should not be a concern if this is done. I would also expect any failures due to unforeseen mechanical seal damage of the capacitor that would let the cleaning solution leak in and also not completely dried out during the drying process would most likely show their damage/failure during the performance testing of the rebuilt unit. Note: In most all the posted Data I'm providing look for information about sealing methods and/or testing methods and/or cleaning methods. I will be very interested to see any data that someone can provide that indicates capacitor types that were used in these older units being rebuilt will fail (if in good mechanical condition) with the ultrasonic cleaning method (Assuming the Parameters Chosen for the Ultrasonic Cleaning Unit are correct for the Job). Now stop speculating and prove me wrong.. miketn Sprague56paper.pdf 1956Ceramite.pdf Silver Mica STD-DIPPED.pdf Mica Radial-appGuide.pdf Cornell Dubilier Orange Drop 715p.pdf Cornell Dubilier Orange Drop 716p.pdf AEappGUIDE Aluminum Electrolytic.pdf Edited May 4, 2015 by mikebse2a3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Mikey, Since you are so defensive of the process why don't you make a video submerging and soaking one of your working amps so you can clean it up according to this industry accepted process? Show us how safe it is on one of YOUR amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Mikey, Since you are so defensive of the process why don't you make a video submerging and soaking one of your working amps so you can clean it up according to this industry accepted process? Show us how safe it is on one of YOUR amps. You misunderstand me Marky I'm not defensive per say but very curious as many about the process and so far the reasons people are giving for why it can't be done is speculation and fear which are not good reasons IMHO to reject it. Where are the facts one way or the other? Now if my amps get 50 years old and as dirty as some of these units I might just try it.. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 (edited) Yeah, I was getting ready to say, Mike's Amps are pretty minty, what would be the point in cleaning a clean amp. There is another upside to this process; a part that is unstable will probably fail, and can be replaced immediately as opposed to failing at a most inopportune time after being sent home. Great stuff Mike. Edited May 5, 2015 by Crankysoldermeister 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 OK while many have been speculating .. I've decided to actually do some data research and based on what I have seen so far as long as the capacitor is still in good mechanical condition (ie: various sealing methods) then they should not be damaged by cleaning if due diligence has been done in choosing of all the right ultrasonic cleaner parameters (ie: set points/features/cleaning solution) and proper drying methods afterwards. If a capacitor isn't in good mechanical condition it should be replaced during rebuilding. Note: IMHO a good rebuild should also include replacing and possibly resizing all electrolytic capacitors so the cleaning of the old one's should not be a concern if this is done. I would also expect any failures due to unforeseen mechanical seal damage of the capacitor that would let the cleaning solution leak in and also not completely dried out during the drying process would most likely show their damage/failure during the performance testing of the rebuilt unit. Note: In most all the posted Data I'm providing look for information about sealing methods and/or testing methods and/or cleaning methods. I will be very interested to see any data that someone can provide that indicates capacitor types that were used in these older units being rebuilt will fail (if in good mechanical condition) with the ultrasonic cleaning method (Assuming the Parameters Chosen for the Ultrasonic Cleaning Unit are correct for the Job). Now stop speculating and prove me wrong.. miketn One again I'll have to call BS. After 50 years of Hot/cold cycles, year of sitting in who knows what type of storage and not being used all the above caps are long past they service life long before one decides to turn them into deep sea divers... then you slam them back into action at 300 to 450V.... I honestly can not see the point.....before the bubble bath they need to be replaced. Black Beauties have a horrible failure rate in this day and age...as does every single capacitor in your list... I see nothing in any of those documents that suggest they should be or expected to withstand a bubble bath... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 another useful piece of data is service life rating. I can't believe you picked black Beauties as an example. Those caps are the first thing anyone in the industry yanks out of gear since they an so prone to explode... guess what makes them explode.... moisture contamination!! those old plastic cases are so old and distorted your just making me laugh my arse off here.. The Vitamin Q is a great cap that last the test of time. Its hermetically sealed. Leaps and bounds better then the Black Beauty ever was. But its still not a 100% guaranteed seal. Since you seem to have the time why not see if you can dig something up on cheapo ceramic disc caps that were left in place all over the amp in question... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 One again I'll have to call BS. After 50 years of Hot/cold cycles, year of sitting in who knows what type of storage and not being used all the above caps are long past they service life long before one decides to turn them into deep sea divers... then you slam them back into action at 300 to 450V.... I honestly can not see the point.....before the bubble bath they need to be replaced. Black Beauties have a horrible failure rate in this day and age...as does every single capacitor in your list... I see nothing in any of those documents that suggest they should be or expected to withstand a bubble bath... Whether they should be replaced because of age during a rebuild is a different subject and I don't necessarily disagree with you on that subject. I will say if a person is looking at a vintage piece of equipment then in some markets(Japan for instance) the highest resale value is often working units with original parts so that has to be weighed versus reliability in those circumstances. The reason I listed these capacitors was because they are commonly used in old equipment and how they were originally designed and there parameters are relevant when cleaning is the subject of the debate. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Save your Black Beauties, put them in the oven! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Look, I don't think these guys would be having the success they're having if this process is a bust. Said another way, why would you hinge your success on a process that ruins the units you are trying to save? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.