mikebse2a3 Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 there is no good sonic benefit to use tube gear if the source is digital. This is definitely not an opinion I can share.. Since every component of a reproduction system adds and subtracts artifacts from the accuracy of reproduction then each of them must be acknowledged as important and influential in the reproduction system. Regardless of the source being digital or analog the reproduction will benefit from the components (ie: tube, solid state or digital) that are combined to create the synergy of an excellent reproducing system in my opinion of course... miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Yes, I still feel tone controls are a useful feature... they can be quite helpful in recreating the playback tonal quality originally intended by the artist and recording engineer. I would change it as follows: Yes, I still feel tone controls are a useful feature... they can be quite helpful in recreating the playback tonal quality originally intended by the artist and recording engineer you prefer to hear. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twk123 Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 (edited) Here's a rather typical comment you can find often: " I have a tube in the buffer stage of my DAC and it makes a huge difference in the sound, it is much more warm and closer to analog than without the tube. I think the DAC is the best stage to have the tube as it puts warmth into the signal at the line level and the SS amp just reproduces that at the speaker volume. Its fun to be able to upgrade and switch out the tubes too." Now, to the poster - this is not about you. I just want to use this comment for my purpose. Take no offense, don't be insulted, don't take my comments as anything to do with you or your system. Now, why want something that is "almost analog?" Just go get analog and be done with it. He obviously believes analog has virtues that digital doesn't. Secondly, if you are using tubes to "warm up the sound" better would be to buy a proper speaker or amp that doesn't cause all the problem that needs to be masked with added warmness. Tubes are not designed as band-aids to be applied to crappy sound. So, you can clearly see the trouble here, right? Again, take no offense if you posted that comment. I see that comment dozens of times. Many who grew up on glorious 70mm film movies, find digital HD to be hideous looking. Young people have no clue what they are talking about. Nolan was insisting to release "Intersteller" on iMAX 70mm film BEFORE it hits any digital theaters. He's a true believer. I mention this for its analogy value. Raised on XBOX? Digital HD is the bomb. Raised on movie film, then film is the bomb. You've trained your senses. Dude, I have an ego and more importantly spent MONEY on that piece of equipment so you can shove it with your "I know what Im talking about because I have experience mumbo jumbo"... lol Ok I got that out of the way and you make some good points. I think that the tube does color the sound in a way that makes it smoother and in my opinion sounds more like analog, if its the tube that is doing that or the better chipset over the usual onboard laptop headphone DAC I dont know. That being said, digital has its convenience factor with online streaming vs hoarding a record collection, especially if you have decent source material. My primary amp is an older but a quality Denon receiver and due to budget constraints its both my HT and two channel rig. I am confused though that if you did have high quality digital source material run through a proper DAC, would tube amps still be a benefit over SS? At the line level would the analog signal be that much different from being unlocked from a digital code vs bumps on vinyl? Edited May 6, 2015 by twk123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Yes, I still feel tone controls are a useful feature... they can be quite helpful in recreating the playback tonal quality originally intended by the artist and recording engineer. I would change it as follows: Yes, I still feel tone controls are a useful feature... they can be quite helpful in recreating the playback tonal quality originally intended by the artist and recording engineer you prefer to hear. I would bet there would be many artist and recording engineers after hearing our home reproduction systems that would apply Tone Controls (if available in our home systems) to try to recover what they originally wanted us to hear in our listening spaces...! You are right in saying "what we prefer to hear" also. .IMO miketn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 there is no good sonic benefit to use tube gear if the source is digital. This is definitely not an opinion I can share.. Since every component of a reproduction system adds and subtracts artifacts from the accuracy of reproduction then each of them must be acknowledged as important and influential in the reproduction system. Regardless of the source being digital or analog the reproduction will benefit from the components (ie: tube, solid state or digital) that are combined to create the synergy of an excellent reproducing system in my opinion of course... miketn Sure, each component is important. Otherwise, you get no sound. My point wasn't importance, my point was benefit. What's the possible benefit of using a tube when there's little or no gain required in that spot? Why not just use a SS device and be done?Many setups today have a digital stack that plugs right into a high gain power amp. Where do you insert a tube? Why? Which tube? By contrast, your MC cartridge needs a gain of 1,000. Now, you have a solid reason to employ tubes. The XF of a triode is simply superior to the XF of a transistor, and can be used with no feedback! That is a benefit, and solid reason to employ a tube. A reason to accept the negative aspects of tubes- cost, size, heat, noise - in exchange for the marvelous benefit of the tube. If you need no gain, like a buffer, or maybe 6dB, the benefit disappears and the tradeoffs remain. If people use it as a tone control, like making warmer sounds, that can be, and should be done in other ways. Mark what I quoted you having said was "there is no good sonic benefit to use tube gear if the source is digital" in my post ..... Now your response about gain in any given spot or designing equipment that you now bring up in response to my post is a different issue. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 I don't agree with you Mark. There is such a thing as well recorded digital music and it sounds very good through a quality tubed line stage. All tube gear does not color the music, but it does sound cleaner somehow, which mates up perfectly with good digital sources and players -- honest! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 what about LP's that have been recorded to 24/192 uncompressed digital files? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 all of that inherent high resolution in LP's is captured into a high resolution digital format. does that throw a wrench in your hypothesis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 One would have to hear it first to form an opinion would be my guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 The point i was working towards: what precisely are you thinking of when you say "digital music"? CD's ..mp3's..streaming a service (spotify, etc) .. cd quality files... hi-res files? they are not all equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 i didn't try a tube amp with the hopes of improving my system's sound.. i wanted to try out a tube amp and see what effect, if any, it had in my system. in my case it gave a more 3 dimensional aspect to the sound stage while keeping everything else I liked in the sound. so, it stays put. i recently went through the same exercise with my crossovers. i wanted to see for myself instead of reading about supposed impacts, and in my system there was in fact a positive change (additional improvements to sound stage, bass response, and clarity of instruments). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 If you want to hybridize by sprinkling tubes around your digital rig, my argument is don't bother. Get really good SS and the whole affair will sound as good as digital can get. I see no reason that tubes will improve a digital sig chain. Make it warm? Sure. Make it colder? Ok. But will there be more clarity, dimensionality and liquidity? Not that I've ever heard. Of course, it goes without saying I haven't heard YOUR system. LOL If a particular tube amplifier or pre-amp has better clarity, dimensionality and liquidity than the SS equivalents then why shouldn't the digital rig benefit from tubes..? Otherwise it seems your saying the tube equipment is inferior to the SS equipment or Digital recordings are limited in quality and no benefit can be heard with Tube Equipment. Neither of these fit my experiences.. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wstrickland1 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I have a C2500 pre-amp (tubed) with an onboard DAC, running thru a MC275 tube amp. The phono section is quite good and I listen to a lot of vinyl. Good digital music sounds very very good too. I assume the signal runs thru a tube or two at some point but not totally sure how/when/where it does. Not sure if that's relevant or not but I think it's better than the solid state equipment I had before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twk123 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Here's a rather typical comment you can find often: " I have a tube in the buffer stage of my DAC and it makes a huge difference in the sound, it is much more warm and closer to analog than without the tube. I think the DAC is the best stage to have the tube as it puts warmth into the signal at the line level and the SS amp just reproduces that at the speaker volume. Its fun to be able to upgrade and switch out the tubes too." Now, to the poster - this is not about you. I just want to use this comment for my purpose. Take no offense, don't be insulted, don't take my comments as anything to do with you or your system. Now, why want something that is "almost analog?" Just go get analog and be done with it. He obviously believes analog has virtues that digital doesn't. Secondly, if you are using tubes to "warm up the sound" better would be to buy a proper speaker or amp that doesn't cause all the problem that needs to be masked with added warmness. Tubes are not designed as band-aids to be applied to crappy sound. So, you can clearly see the trouble here, right? Again, take no offense if you posted that comment. I see that comment dozens of times. Many who grew up on glorious 70mm film movies, find digital HD to be hideous looking. Young people have no clue what they are talking about. Nolan was insisting to release "Intersteller" on iMAX 70mm film BEFORE it hits any digital theaters. He's a true believer. I mention this for its analogy value. Raised on XBOX? Digital HD is the bomb. Raised on movie film, then film is the bomb. You've trained your senses. Dude, I have an ego and more importantly spent MONEY on that piece of equipment so you can shove it with your "I know what Im talking about because I have experience mumbo jumbo"... lol Ok I got that out of the way and you make some good points. I think that the tube does color the sound in a way that makes it smoother and in my opinion sounds more like analog, if its the tube that is doing that or the better chipset over the usual onboard laptop headphone DAC I dont know. That being said, digital has its convenience factor with online streaming vs hoarding a record collection, especially if you have decent source material. My primary amp is an older but a quality Denon receiver and due to budget constraints its both my HT and two channel rig. I am confused though that if you did have high quality digital source material run through a proper DAC, would tube amps still be a benefit over SS? At the line level would the analog signal be that much different from being unlocked from a digital code vs bumps on vinyl? Did you think you were going to be a rude a-hole and then ask me questions? I think I prefaced my use of your comment with enough disclaimer for any intelligent adult. Hey man Im really sorry, I was totally not being serious and its hard to convey sarcasm over the web. Im just lampooning the typical response I see so often when people get offended over audio gear they support or components they own, especially with the forums being contentious lately. I apologize if it came off as me being a dick and not something to chuckle at. Im actually a relative novice to all this and appreciate your advice, as I mentioned my first DAC has a tube in the buffer and I do enjoy the sound but I have a lot to learn so that is why I am asking questions regarding how tubes play into the overall chain of audio. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Hey man Im really sorry, I was totally not being serious and its hard to convey sarcasm over the web. Im just lampooning the typical response I see so often when people get offended over audio gear they support or components they own, especially with the forums being contentious lately. I apologize if it came off as me being a dick and not something to chuckle at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) I have heard plenty of tubes and none of them dropped my jaw. Perhaps my jaw is heavier? Just don't go calling me slack-jawed! Edited May 7, 2015 by muel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twk123 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 If you want to hybridize by sprinkling tubes around your digital rig, my argument is don't bother. Get really good SS and the whole affair will sound as good as digital can get. I see no reason that tubes will improve a digital sig chain. Make it warm? Sure. Make it colder? Ok. But will there be more clarity, dimensionality and liquidity? Not that I've ever heard. Of course, it goes without saying I haven't heard YOUR system. LOL If a particular tube amplifier or pre-amp has better clarity, dimensionality and liquidity than the SS equivalents then why shouldn't the digital rig benefit from tubes..? Otherwise it seems your saying the tube equipment is inferior to the SS equipment or Digital recordings are limited in quality and no benefit can be heard with Tube Equipment. Neither of these fit my experiences.. miketn Suppose we talk about preamps for a moment. If I had a very high end CDP to play CDs, and was willing to spend $5 grand on a preamp, I think a $5K SS preamp would sound as good in all respects as the $5 grand tube rig. But, if we change the source to vinyl, the $5k tube rig will sound better, because there is more in the source inherently that the tube pre can dig out. Now part of that, has to do with how horribly the CDs are produced in the engineering. But, part of it is the limitation of the format. PS. I totally understand that everything anyone says is "their opinion" so no one needs to repeat that to me. And I sure hope I don't need to add that line to every post. Otherwise I will put it in my sig. So does the tube amp color the sound to make it more appealing or are tube amps inherently more transparent in a way that benefits analog material over digital in which the conversion loss would negate the benefit of tubes over SS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube fanatic Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Wish I had time to enter this discussion! However, I'll leave you with this quote from my friend Aaron Newman (designer of the Lafayette 600 preamp, 550 power amp, and others): "....good solid state is better than good tube." Of course, I don't agree at all! Maynard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 So what would you say is a good SS substitute for the pCat amps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 i didn't try a tube amp with the hopes of improving my system's sound.. i wanted to try out a tube amp and see what effect, if any, it had in my system. in my case it gave a more 3 dimensional aspect to the sound stage while keeping everything else I liked in the sound. so, it stays put. Sure, why not? BUT, I would have no doubt that for whatever money you paid for your "tube amp" - the one that you settled on - there is a SS unit capable of exactly the same sonic benefits. Might not be one you've heard of, but I am quite sure it is out there. And if you had that in place of the tube thing, you'd be eliminating all the negatives I spoke of. In other words, for a digital stream, there are SS amps that will extract all there is to get. Fair point. why did you put "tube amp" in sarcasm quotes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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