Would You Do This To A Classic Amp?

[oldtimer]

"It's a mad house!"

[Deang]

I would like a link so that I can read it for myself within its fuller, original context.

[mikebse2a3]

 

Not all classic designs are equal in sound quality performance and can be improved with better circuit designs.

 

Many modifying companies working on Dynaco, Hafler, Adcom and others have use the practice of using the basic design's chassis and transformer (transformers in the case of tube amplifiers) and other various components while introducing their own improved circuits. It can save considerable money since a large cost of a design is in the chassis, case work, transformers, heat sinks for SS designs..etc......

 

 

 

"Apparently all the guys whose genius designed these things were all wrong, or eclipsed or something"

 

There are many reasons why amplifiers (Tubes and SS) can be improved and it doesn't mean the original designers were wrong for their time or circumstances that might have influenced the original design.

 

 

miketn 

I understand there are people that play around with these amps.  Will extremely patient guidance I myself converted a Bogem MO 100 to El34's and beefed up the circuit.  You assisted me in re-cappng a Hafler preamp, and I'm aware of the various Dynaco circuit board changes, some that better and some that worsen the performance of that amp.

 

I'm also aware that not all classic tube designs are the best they could be, many are very cheaply built.  That is why I stripped the transformers from an old console and with Maynard help built an  very nice SEP last winter.  At least I had the decency to sue a new case for those old transformers.

 

However, what these guys are proposing sounds like wholesale slaughter.  Their claim is anything they do to any and all of these classsic amps is going to be way better than anything that is inside them.  That's nonsense to me.  I mean would you gut a pair of Marantz Model 9's, for example, and then have the balls to claim you put a better circuit in them?

 

They also seem to sneer at Class A/B. "Yes, we'll get rid of that right away because Class A is better" to paraphrase.  Really? No debate within the audio firmament at all on that? 

 

 

 

The phono and line amplifiers are converted to low feedback pure class A triode designs. The output and driver stages are changed from simple push-pull to fully differential amplifiers using either power pentode or full triode design.

 

Now I'm not sure what all of that stuff above means, but it's clearly not  a Dynaco Mark 4, or a Marantz 8b, or Scott X202b or...

 

I don't object to sprucing up an old design, but what is the point of simply gutting stuff.  For $2700 you can build a might fine amplifier, hey even monoblocks. Ones with transformers that could be would to spec. 

 

Tell me.  When they are done do they leave the unused tubes heaters hooked up so you can get that nice warm glow from those old Mullards and Telefunkens, and pretend you are are living in the "Mad Men" era.   Mad men, indeed.

 

 

 OK Marty you win...!  I'm tired of this....

[oldtimer]

Trust in Thebes.

[thebes]

 

 

Not all classic designs are equal in sound quality performance and can be improved with better circuit designs.

 

Many modifying companies working on Dynaco, Hafler, Adcom and others have use the practice of using the basic design's chassis and transformer (transformers in the case of tube amplifiers) and other various components while introducing their own improved circuits. It can save considerable money since a large cost of a design is in the chassis, case work, transformers, heat sinks for SS designs..etc......

 

 

 

"Apparently all the guys whose genius designed these things were all wrong, or eclipsed or something"

 

There are many reasons why amplifiers (Tubes and SS) can be improved and it doesn't mean the original designers were wrong for their time or circumstances that might have influenced the original design.

 

 

miketn 

I understand there are people that play around with these amps.  Will extremely patient guidance I myself converted a Bogem MO 100 to El34's and beefed up the circuit.  You assisted me in re-cappng a Hafler preamp, and I'm aware of the various Dynaco circuit board changes, some that better and some that worsen the performance of that amp.

 

I'm also aware that not all classic tube designs are the best they could be, many are very cheaply built.  That is why I stripped the transformers from an old console and with Maynard help built an  very nice SEP last winter.  At least I had the decency to sue a new case for those old transformers.

 

However, what these guys are proposing sounds like wholesale slaughter.  Their claim is anything they do to any and all of these classsic amps is going to be way better than anything that is inside them.  That's nonsense to me.  I mean would you gut a pair of Marantz Model 9's, for example, and then have the balls to claim you put a better circuit in them?

 

They also seem to sneer at Class A/B. "Yes, we'll get rid of that right away because Class A is better" to paraphrase.  Really? No debate within the audio firmament at all on that? 

 

 

 

The phono and line amplifiers are converted to low feedback pure class A triode designs. The output and driver stages are changed from simple push-pull to fully differential amplifiers using either power pentode or full triode design.

 

Now I'm not sure what all of that stuff above means, but it's clearly not  a Dynaco Mark 4, or a Marantz 8b, or Scott X202b or...

 

I don't object to sprucing up an old design, but what is the point of simply gutting stuff.  For $2700 you can build a might fine amplifier, hey even monoblocks. Ones with transformers that could be would to spec. 

 

Tell me.  When they are done do they leave the unused tubes heaters hooked up so you can get that nice warm glow from those old Mullards and Telefunkens, and pretend you are are living in the "Mad Men" era.   Mad men, indeed.

 

 

 OK Marty you win...!  I'm tired of this....

 

If you are going to surrender, and in all of my false humility, I'm not surprised, the least you could do is add a smiley.

[oldtimer]

Smilies are for wimps.

[thebes]

Maybe this approach would work better. He has a $23,500 amp on Audiogonzo right now:

 

Please understand these:
Audio equipment is civilization and music is culture.

Don’t sell audio equipment; a seller needs to wait for the customer who understands the value of audio equipment and buys it.

1. The audio equipment for listening to music are not goods sold according to persuasion and power.

2. In short, audio equipment are the goods which are bought after a customer understands the value.

3. Supposing audio equipments are sold at persuasion and power, since the customer bought it without understanding the value, he will get bored with using them immediately.

4. A seller needs to enlighten a customer so that a customer can judge the right sound. For that reason, a seller needs to recommend a customer to go to a concert.
(The reason: Don’t get to know a real sound, and there are many people who evaluate sound quality.)
However, a seller must not force about it to a customer.

5. A seller has to introduce the good software for his customer, and a seller has to make it a matter of pride for his customer to have much software.

6. A seller does not recommend a customer on a change of audio equipments; only when there is dissatisfaction as opposed to sound quality in a customer, it is right for a seller to teach a customer the cause.

“Audio equipment is civilization and music is culture”

In other words, for anyone aspiring to own a piece of this civilization, Mr. Imai would want to understand the priority of his prospective client before selling an amplifier to him. Per the first criterion in the article, you have to be the right kind of customer for their products. The following is Yujean’s thoughts on this:
“As you may see, Mr. Imai is truly an artist rather than an audio manufacturer.
It’s the same in Japan, when someone wishes to buy an Audio Tekne, Mr. Imai will invite the potential buyer to his home and listen at least for a whole day. Then he will gradually make this potential buyer to have a complete understanding about Audio Tekne by listening from a long session.

[oldtimer]

Every American knows---refrigeration is civilization.

[Deang]

Wow.

I am now offering all day refrigerated listening sessions for my networks. Mr. Crites will monitor are vitals with his spectrum analyzer.

[oldtimer]

Just a fancy way of saying you can listen to stereo in air conditioned comfort.  I'm not sure where mr. crites is needed.

[joshnich]

 

Not all classic designs are equal in sound quality performance and can be improved with better circuit designs.

 

Many modifying companies working on Dynaco, Hafler, Adcom and others have use the practice of using the basic design's chassis and transformer (transformers in the case of tube amplifiers) and other various components while introducing their own improved circuits. It can save considerable money since a large cost of a design is in the chassis, case work, transformers, heat sinks for SS designs..etc......

 

 

 

"Apparently all the guys whose genius designed these things were all wrong, or eclipsed or something"

 

There are many reasons why amplifiers (Tubes and SS) can be improved and it doesn't mean the original designers were wrong for their time or circumstances that might have influenced the original design.

 

 

miketn 

I understand there are people that play around with these amps.  Will extremely patient guidance I myself converted a Bogem MO 100 to El34's and beefed up the circuit.  You assisted me in re-cappng a Hafler preamp, and I'm aware of the various Dynaco circuit board changes, some that better and some that worsen the performance of that amp.

 

I'm also aware that not all classic tube designs are the best they could be, many are very cheaply built.  That is why I stripped the transformers from an old console and with Maynard help built an  very nice SEP last winter.  At least I had the decency to sue a new case for those old transformers.

 

However, what these guys are proposing sounds like wholesale slaughter.  Their claim is anything they do to any and all of these classsic amps is going to be way better than anything that is inside them.  That's nonsense to me.  I mean would you gut a pair of Marantz Model 9's, for example, and then have the balls to claim you put a better circuit in them?

 

They also seem to sneer at Class A/B. "Yes, we'll get rid of that right away because Class A is better" to paraphrase.  Really? No debate within the audio firmament at all on that? 

 

 

 

The phono and line amplifiers are converted to low feedback pure class A triode designs. The output and driver stages are changed from simple push-pull to fully differential amplifiers using either power pentode or full triode design.

 

Now I'm not sure what all of that stuff above means, but it's clearly not  a Dynaco Mark 4, or a Marantz 8b, or Scott X202b or...

 

I don't object to sprucing up an old design, but what is the point of simply gutting stuff.  For $2700 you can build a might fine amplifier, hey even monoblocks. Ones with transformers that could be would to spec. 

 

Tell me.  When they are done do they leave the unused tubes heaters hooked up so you can get that nice warm glow from those old Mullards and Telefunkens, and pretend you are are living in the "Mad Men" era.   Mad men, indeed.

 

I am not sure how you did it..but the quote you attribute to me was not written by me. My comment was that this type of rebuild may not be silly if the people offering it are qualified and have the audio credentails that one would trust. When my Maserati starts buring oil, and a world class mechanic tells me he could retrofit a Porsche motor I might consider it!

Edited May 8, 2015 by joshnich

[juniper]

I had my Pilot amps worked on twice, once from a gentleman from atmosphere audio, (explained to him I wanted it as original as possible, but wanted the dangerous parts removed)  After it was worked on, the sound was astounding. Better than I have ever heard, in my systems, then something drifted....I then had it worked on by a studio tech... It came back and sounded clinical and a little harsh, but had a strange balance that I liked but it was to bright.  I contacted Tube Fanatic, my tube guru, to complain. Then something happened, I think something broke in.... it is awesome once again but just different.... Better resolution, inner detail is more forward and bass I don't hear with many of these vintage tube amps, clean fast and deep.... Some of these old amps, do like new parts, make sure you find someone good... I think with many classic amps, if they are good performers, use all the same values except where beefing things up makes sense... and find someone like Tube Fanatic for guidance!!!!

[Kent T]

I want modern sound, I buy modern amplifiers. Leave classic audio alone and maintain it, don't gut it or mod it, if you want different sound. get different gear and sell  your existing off or trade your old. This kind of modification devalues gear forever unless it can be undone. Nothing wrong if you want modern or different. 

[oldtimer]

When my Maserati starts buring oil, and a world class mechanic tells me he could retrofit a Porsche motor I might consider it!

 

Just do what the Alfa guys do.  Recognize that oil is cheaper than a rebuild or a retrofit and keep dumping it down the hole.  When you get to a quart every 300 miles, then consider your options!

Edited May 8, 2015 by oldtimer

[joshnich]

 

When my Maserati starts buring oil, and a world class mechanic tells me he could retrofit a Porsche motor I might consider it!

 

Just do what the Alfa guys do.  Recognize that oil is cheaper than a rebuild or a retrofit and keep dumping it down the hole.  When you get to a quart every 300 miles, then consider your options!

 

I have owned a few Alfas and it sounds as if you have as well! BTW I was joking about the Maserati based on Thebe's original auto anaology!

[thebes]

I am not sure how you did it..but the quote you attribute to me was not written by me.

 

I am Thebes.  All things are possible.

[thebes]

Juniper and KentT, I really like your posts.  Nuanced, yet clear expressions of the point I'm trying to make.  I should have you guys write all my posts. Then maybe somebody could actually understand them

[oldtimer]

Sweet mark.  The guilietta is very prized now still.

[minermark]

"... custom designs all new circuitry that transforms your vintage amp into a modern, extreme high-end amplifier.

 

We perform complete “gut and rebuild” modifications that greatly improve the sound quality of virtually any vintage amp, including Fisher, Marantz, McIntosh, Dynaco, Eico, H.H. Scott, Sherwood and Heathkit.

We begin by removing all of the amp’s original components, including all resistors and capacitors. Then we create new, custom circuitry that optimizes the sound quality of its original power supply and output transformers.

 

Each stage of your amplifier, from the phono preamp section to the power output stage, is redesigned and rebuilt.  The phono and line amplifiers are converted to low feedback pure class A triode designs. The output and driver stages are changed from simple push-pull to fully differential amplifiers using either power pentode or full triode design.

 

These modifications provide a level of inner detail and spatial-dynamics normally associated only with amps costing 10 times the price. They represent a truly outstanding value for the money. It is very difficult to surpass the sound quality of our modified amps for less than $25,000."

 

Sure sprucing up and jazzing up a classic amp during a rebuild is acceptable behavior, but what is the point of a gut job like they are describing. Apparently all the guys whose genius designed these things were all wrong, or eclipsed or something, and instead of offering a new circuit in a new amp, for $2700  we'll turn your classic into some sort of audio Potemkin Village.

 

Ok let's try a car analogy. Would you put a Porsche  engine into a Maserati?

 

Seems incredibly silly to me.

 

Oh, and does somebody really make a $25,000 amp?  I suppose. this is audio after all.

Im only a two hour drive from Silicone Valley, on more than on trip buying audio related gear, i witnessed some area made Amps in small Quanitys, Mono Blocks that were 30K each, and when they were being spoken of, the guy sounded like these were the Cheap of the lot.

Bay area people, im tellin ya.

[oldtimer]

Beautiful.  Absolutely automotive art.