WMcD Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 It would be best to call the manufacturer of the machine and do what they tell you. You owe this to the men / women who will be using it in the future. WMcD 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) I read through about half of the threads and a lot are right on, Mark had a good point(something about farmers). I well tell you this as I have worked on JCB's, CAT's, and John Deere backhoes. That red loctite, is probably over kill along with hammering down with your impact. But you should be just fine doing so. I know Gilbert said that you would need heat to remove it, but over time and vibrations it may come off just as easy, Reason I say that is we use red loctite on bolts for all our aerial lifts and when it comes time to take them apart they come off just fine, no heat required. Yes with a smaller bolt with less strain you would probably need heat. Last, next time you need help with this call me I will be more than happy to trade my time for some listening time with the Jubilees and MWMs. If you plan to keep this machine, and add others it may not be a bad idea to get a torque multiplier or a bigger torque wrench. Mine is approx 4' long 3/4" drive and goes up to 600 fl/lbs. 350-400 sounds about right for those, as I torque bolts about that size to around that. I think you will be fine following some of the simple advice that has been given by others. One thing I will stress as much as possible is be safe when working on or around these. Never assume the tooling is aqueduct, and never use chains to pull or lift and less they are designed for that. If you want to know why pm me and I will tell you. Yes check your work a couple times after use to insure everything is ok. Whenever we do big or major repairs, we replace all bolts. No reason not to, its just safer and saves time and money. Edited May 9, 2015 by duder1982 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 One last thing, I noticed by the pics you have some hydraulic leaks. While you have this apart I would have the cylinders repacked. You know what they say, if oil can get out, dirt can get in. Hydraulic contamination will cause the components to wear out faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted May 9, 2015 Author Share Posted May 9, 2015 The bolt doesn't need loctite. What it needs is the proper install. Prevailing torque will hold it indefinitely. I didn't see anything on the threads but... it's been at least 15 years minimum that they've been on. I've looked up some torque multipliers..... looks like they range from expensive to wow-expensive (remember, I only have 4 nuts) I've seen some that simply multiply but no way to measure and some with some measuring contraption. Regardless, I'll be asking around for one of these before just buying one. I hate to buy a one time tool....but am not against it. It would be best to call the manufacturer of the machine and do what they tell you. You owe this to the men / women who will be using it in the future. WMcD In addition to consulting my little tag along buddy who just yawned and said who cares?, I was talking to the dealer. I too figured to go to the horses mouth. I don't trust Carrot's advice of purring & not worrying about it! I'm not fixing this to flip.... so I agree 100% with you that I owe it......to me.... to get this right. I don't want this lower plate to twist & create a repair bill. Repair bills for this thing are not what a small time home owner wants to fool with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted May 9, 2015 Author Share Posted May 9, 2015 The picture of the bolt, is the bolt that I had to wrestle off. I used the 24" pipe wrench and around 36" cheater bar most of the way. It wasn't until the last couple threads that the impact spun the nut off. The other bolt threads are in better shape, this is the worst of the bunch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted May 9, 2015 Author Share Posted May 9, 2015 One last thing, I noticed by the pics you have some hydraulic leaks. While you have this apart I would have the cylinders repacked. You know what they say, if oil can get out, dirt can get in. Hydraulic contamination will cause the components to wear out faster. That was the entire purpose of this project. I discovered I was losing quite a bit of fluid out the gland seal. My issue was how to wrestle it apart. Used two straps on the back of the ram, two straps on the front (of differing lengths) and "ratched" it down. I intend to get it back up in a similar way. My floor jack was way too short but helped when I cut a 24" notched board to stand vertical & support the back. I feared when the lower plate was removed, they'd all come crashing down. I then realized I could leave the rams pinned into the swinging part of the hoe and that should hold them up (it did). Worked like a charm on the way down. I fear I'll be cussing once/twice on the way up! The only chain I have to mess with is roughly 25' (might be 20) grade 100 and it's a square link alloy chain made if I recall, in Austria. Choker on one end and grabber on the other. Use it primarily to wrestle portions of fallen trees (drag to cut or burn pile). To anyone that has a little tractor and likes to extract their own firewood, I couldn't recommend this square link any higher. It just bites right into the tree and grabs hold. Cylinders are out as I type for repacking. Due back this Thursday. If you look at the underside and see the trunnion "caps" (not sure what they're called) you will notice I'm missing the left one. I have talked to the dealer about that 'cap' and got an empty stare. Looking at the quasi-manual that I have, it isn't shown. Makes me wonder if it's part of the larger piece itself rather than its own part number. So, I took that plate to have a new cap welded on. I didn't think....they didn't ask or know....and he put a flat cap on, not a curved cap. The picture shows the cylinder pin extending past the flat plane....so now, I have to have the flat cap taken off and have someone pound out a curved one to weld back on. My mistake since I didn't really pay attention to it before I dropped it off. More cash that I get to throw at the fix. I don't know how long the missing cap has been gone but I figure I've got it all apart, let's try to put it back together as correctly as I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) One thing I will say about cylinders, when you have to repair them. Check on pricing for new, working for a repair facility. We often find it cheaper, than time and all the parts. Especially if a new rod is in order. One note on the chain, purchase one for the intended us(as you did), and inspect it before each use. Don't yank your chain either, no pun intended. Edited May 10, 2015 by duder1982 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted May 9, 2015 Author Share Posted May 9, 2015 For kicks, here's the chain http://www.labonville.com/Pewag-G-100-Alloy-Square-Link-Chain--G100S_p_1139.html# I was cutting the back side of the farm once. There is a little stream back there. Very over grown, couldn't see the muddy stream and I got the tractor stuck. Tractor was an International Harvester 1086 and had a 10' heavy duty Rhino mower behind it. Stuck almost to the rear axle in muck. I called my neighbor, said to jump on backhoe & bring it over. He brought his company (who happened to have retired from somewhere in the steel business). I lashed up my grade 100 chain to the tractor, extended my backhoe outwards and lashed it to the hoe. I then flexed the hoe and pulled the tractor/mower out of the muck. Also pulled it sideways a bit. He (the extra person who was in steel business) later admitted that he was laughing under his breath that I was going to try this as he 'knew' the chain would simply snap before it pulled the tractor out of the quicksand. It's a stout little chain! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 One thing I will say about cylinders, when you have to repair them. Check on pricing for new, working for a repair facility. We often find it cheaper, than time and all the parts. Especially if a new rod is in order. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha inhale... hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaah whew....inhale...... hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha I did that once. Ok, I'll admit I called the dealer about it and perhaps that was a mistake. First, they said there were none of that size to be found in the country. (in the dealer network) Second, they said it would be something like $4,000 for this cylinder. As I recall, it was the dipperstick cylinder on the hoe. JCB is very proud of their parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 So, get something like this multiplier http://www.ebay.com/itm/X-4-Tool-Division-LW750-1-2-to-3-4-1000lbs-Torque-Multiplier-/131337135852?hash=item1e944da6ec&item=131337135852&vxp=mtr Take my 150 ft/lb wrench, and the process would be...(presuming 715 ft/lb is correct) 715 ft/lb * 66% for a 'wet' torque value = 471.9 (472) ft/lb Take multiplier (3.4) and mount socket and mount to nut. Take 1/2" drive torque wrench, put it on 139 ft/lb and apply until it clicks. Just that simple huh? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted May 10, 2015 Moderators Share Posted May 10, 2015 Everybody hit the nail on the head, they onlybthing I can add is that I reccomend maximum torqueage. Use a torque wrench that has a Certificate of Validation to be "dead on balls accurate." It's an industry term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 JCB is very proud of their parts First 3 letters of that statement are you biggest issue. I worked for a CAT dealer, and Cat is very proud of their parts. If we have an outrigger cylinder(which is the most common) with a damaged rod. It is cheaper for us to just swap it out with a new one, than to have it rebuilt. We all so take in to consideration, that we are loosing money on rents when they are not up and running quicker. So more time to have a cylinder rebuilt, is less time on rent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 So, get something like this multiplier http://www.ebay.com/itm/X-4-Tool-Division-LW750-1-2-to-3-4-1000lbs-Torque-Multiplier-/131337135852?hash=item1e944da6ec&item=131337135852&vxp=mtr Take my 150 ft/lb wrench, and the process would be...(presuming 715 ft/lb is correct) 715 ft/lb * 66% for a 'wet' torque value = 471.9 (472) ft/lb Take multiplier (3.4) and mount socket and mount to nut. Take 1/2" drive torque wrench, put it on 139 ft/lb and apply until it clicks. Just that simple huh? That is very low cost, my only concern is if the tool is able to be repaired, or calibrated. If so, then I wouldn't mind having one for myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 The X-4 are great kit....the Army simply wipes there *** with them, so there are usually plenty on liquidation on eBay. I got my LW-750 for $90 in great shape but with no handle and a limiter installed. Removed the limiter, ordered a new handle from the factory, and viola'...saved 60% over new. What I would really be concerned with is to get the minimum required torque on that new nut without going overboard. Like USNRET mentioned, the load is in shear, hence no need to go bonkers. Yet 472 ft-lb is no joke. That's standing on top of a 4' long torque wrench. Major financial and ergonomic issue. So getting the multiplier facilitates the use of a much smaller (less expensive and compact) precision tool with no significant loss in accuracy by the user. Over-torquing a proper fastener is the #1 reason why they are a pain to remove in the first place. They generate some major forces for removing stubborn fasteners. An 18" breaker bar becomes a significant weapon. Just that simple huh? If so, then I wouldn't mind having one for myself. Yes and Why more farmers and equipment operators don't have them is beyond me. Less out of pocket than a full set of slugging wrenches or pneumatic equipment. The trick is to acquire one before you really need one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 The trick is to acquire one before you really need one. Well.... I can't tell you how that comment resonated with me. Just ordered one off Ebay (X4). There is no handle with it. Any reason I can't just slip my cheater bar over the end of this thing verses buying the (admittedly proper) handle for it? Yes, I'm trying to cheap out.... the cost of fixing this leak is thus far: $950 for both cylinders $50 of oil that dripped out which is brought the leak to my attention $50 of oil to replace what dripped out $100 to get plate fabricated/welded to lower trunnion mount plate to cover the open hole $250 to buy the bolts I'm replacing $100 to buy the torque multiplier to tighten said bolts I should have at least first tried the old bubble gum trick 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 The people who have mentioned getting a new rod are right on. The new seals and guides may or may not function properly on a worn or undersized rod and you will have to remove those bolts again. JJK 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taz Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Don't have any of those fancy torque multipliers. But I have a 10' pipe that I use for a cheater. Works well for adjusting road signs, Stop signs, and everything else I've put it up against. At the price of those bolts and nuts I think I'd buy Tap and die to chase the threads and hang on to them in case you want them latter on. With a drill, tap, and small bolt I can secure most any bolt so it will not back out. but that don't help you here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdog Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 The bolts need to be torqued and the locking nuts make an accurate torque almost impossible to achieve. At the very least use a wrench with a cheater to get them very tight. A impact wrench will never actually torque a nut anywhere near what the the makers claim. I have tested many. If it was me I would use my 1" impact gun and call it good even though I own a 650lb/ft torque wrench. You can't know how much of the torque you are applying is to over come the locknut and how much is streching the bolt which is what is important. I make my living wrenching on heavy equipment so take my advice for what it is worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) The picture of the bolt, is the bolt that I had to wrestle off. I used the 24" pipe wrench and around 36" cheater bar most of the way. It wasn't until the last couple threads that the impact spun the nut off. The other bolt threads are in better shape, this is the worst of the bunch. you could have re-used 3 bolts -you can make a jig to test the bolts with a block or bracket - if the torque wrench hits 400lbs - the bolt and nut is fine -lock tite is up to you but if it makes you feel safer - why not - Edited May 10, 2015 by Randyh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) Hi Edited May 10, 2015 by duder1982 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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