Extra Atmos Eye Candy

[Paducah Home Theater]

Hmm it's only a 4" with a 1" with a hefty price tag to boot. I can't see this being worth it IMO.

The Dolby guys as well as the mixers for the latest Transformers movies specifically said to use big full range speakers even in the ceiling. Personally I don't see how a 4" woofer whose frequency response isn't even published is the answer to that.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/286-latest-industry-news/1681162-dolby-atmos-press-conference-cedia-2014-a.html

"an ideal Atmos system includes full-range speakers all around, including the overheads"

"what's also significant is to have full-range surrounds that don't wimp out when you pan things like helicopters to them. The sound retains its rich, deep character."

Edited July 20, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Sancho Panza]

^^^ very interesting, thank you; thread subscribed to...

[Jay L]

For never hearing it, there is a lot of negative comments regarding the capabilities of speakers APPROVED by Dolby to accomplish this effect. They wrote the spec, we meet it. Our Atmos speakers are exceeding things other companies could not accomplish, yet our stuff is taking a beating without hearing it. 

[willland]

Your average home application Atmos approved speakers are no more capable of producing full range than your average home application surround speaker.  

 

Okay boys, let's hoist our RF towers and Cornwalls into the attic and have ourselves a demo.

 

 

For never hearing it, there is a lot of negative comments regarding the capabilities of speakers APPROVED by Dolby to accomplish this effect. They wrote the spec, we meet it. Our Atmos speakers are exceeding things other companies could not accomplish, yet our stuff is taking a beating without hearing it. 

 

Jay, I hope and expect the Klipsch Atmos approved speakers will have a wide acceptance and will sound great.  

 

Bill

[Scrappydue]

For never hearing it, there is a lot of negative comments regarding the capabilities of speakers APPROVED by Dolby to accomplish this effect. They wrote the spec, we meet it. Our Atmos speakers are exceeding things other companies could not accomplish, yet our stuff is taking a beating without hearing it.

jay not sure how long you have been around. I only remember starting to see your name when the thread came up about the biggest release in ten years. So you have to understand that MOST (not all) of the forum members here have home theaters to the max. A few of us even have cinema gear in out house. From a guy who owns cinema, palladium, and heritage gear I'm just not so sure about these little guys being able to cut it with any of my setups. We keep

Just getting told they meet a spec. That means nothing to most here. Don't take it personally. I have a Nebraska furniture mart within 45 minutes from me. They are waiting on their Klipsch atmos stuff. I will go check them out soon. If they are cool. Maybe they will have a place in my house.

[Jay L]

No offense taken at all. I am trying to encourage people to try Atmos. If you don't like the up-firing approach, we have a ton of other speakers we can sell you.
I have been at Klipsch just under 15 years if that matters. I have had a home theater since 1995. I have always had "big" speakers, and I always will. Trust me when I say I know where you guys are coming from, I get it.


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Edited July 31, 2015 by Jay L

[TasDom]

A few of us even have cinema gear in out house.

 

That's a little extreme Scrappy but I guess it beats reading a magazine.

[Scrappydue]

A few of us even have cinema gear in out house.

That's a little extreme Scrappy but I guess it beats reading a magazine.

I had to read that about five times before I got it. Not editing it either

[Youthman]

Haha...I missed that.  Way too funny. 

[Nismo]

For never hearing it, there is a lot of negative comments regarding the capabilities of speakers APPROVED by Dolby to accomplish this effect. They wrote the spec, we meet it. Our Atmos speakers are exceeding things other companies could not accomplish, yet our stuff is taking a beating without hearing it. 

Naturally upward firing speakers are getting a lot of focus with Atmos, primarily because those configurations are an all new category with HT.  And because Atmos sends content to those speakers in a whole new way— with object-based audio. But, keep in mind that Atmos is an extremely flexible object-based format. You can use any combination of height speakers, ceiling speakers or the new upward firing speakers. Getting lost, is the fact that Atmos mixed tracks are not exclusive to (or limited to) the overhead or height speakers. And because the content is not channel based, your AVR manages object audio to take full advantage of both the number and placement of all your speakers—including your F/R/C etc.

 

Object based-audio provides a new set of authoring tools for sound designers. Atmos content creators can precisely place and move sounds almost anywhere with great precision, placement and movement, and that content is not limited to the upward firing or ceiling speakers. Atmos supports 24.1.10 (24 floor/listener level speakers, sub, & 10 height /ceiling speakers). While overhead speakers are key to the experience, content also gets sent to your full range fronts, sides, rear as well (because content is not tied to any specific channel configuration). Atmos takes advantage of the entire sound stage (both listener level & overhead) & that combination is what provides the immersive experience. I've mentioned before that Atmos is 50% software, 50% hardware, & content will be as good as the talents of the films  sound designers & director.

 

Rewind & consider that (prior to Atmos) traditional heights, ceiling or wide speaker configurations have be around for years. But, for example (prior to Atmos), when your AVR processed a "front wide" signal... it only replicated existing Front L/R channels. The content was not "new or different", it merely "extended" the same info of existing L & R channels (perfect for large rooms where sitting positions may be outside of the MLP).  Same for traditional heights configured speakers, the content was not new or specific to those height channels... the content was extended or replicated from existing channels (again, this was helpful for large rooms with tall or high ceilings). Atmos sends audio completely different than traditional high or wide processing of the past.  Object-based Atmos moves sounds almost anywhere, including overhead, including your full range F/L/C mains. Atmos is different from just adding more speakers (going from 5.1 to 7.1 etc.) it changes how select audio gets sent to the speakers, creating a multidimensional listening experience. If you came to my house & heard Transformers AoE in DTS Master Audio and then heard the same scene in Atmos... you could notice the difference immediately.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Nismo

[Paducah Home Theater]

For never hearing it, there is a lot of negative comments regarding the capabilities of speakers APPROVED by Dolby to accomplish this effect. They wrote the spec, we meet it. Our Atmos speakers are exceeding things other companies could not accomplish, yet our stuff is taking a beating without hearing it. 

 

Personally I'm just curious as to why the specs change with add-on modules than trying to be negative.  I'm sure they're fun, and the mere fact that they exist is way beyond what other competitors are doing, not to mention that I think they're pretty affordable and easy to integrate plus don't look ridiculous, you can easily put them on some towers and call it good.  And yes anybody can click the link below and see that these are kosher:

 

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf

 

 

However, at least in the commercial specs, on section 4.6 on page 9, it groups the upper surrounds with the side surrounds when laying out the frequency response, and they want them to be no less than -6 db down at 40 hz ideally, and even if they can't handle that, at the minimum they want them to be capable of no less than -3 db at 90 hz, crossing over no higher than 100 hz.  

 

Same thing with the home specs from the link above:  "Dolby Atmos audio is mixed using discrete, full-range audio objects that may move around anywhere in three-dimensional space. With this in mind, overhead speakers should complement the frequency response, output, and power-handling capabilities of the listener-level speakers."

 

 

However when you move to the section in regards to the add-on modules, it specifically says those are NOT full range and you should use bass management on them.  Mostly curious as to why they're ok with this if they're so adamant about everything else being full range on most every other piece of literature or interview.  Best I can tell, crossing these over lower may kill the effect, and lower frequencies may be able to be localized by the user, appearing to come from the top of the tower instead of the ceiling, plus they may vibrate and bounce around more.  That's my assumption at least.  Otherwise, why not just get a CDT-5800 and put them in a tilted box?  

[Jay L]

Dolby has two different guidelines for two very different applications(Home/Cinema). In smaller spaces you can easily use smaller speakers, which we all know. What I think people are forgetting is in the home the sweet spot is WAY smaller than a cinema. Because of this you don't need massive surrounds or height channels to cover multiple rows of seating. I think there is way way too much concentration being put on the DAES height channels. The Dolby Atmos Enabled Speakers are just one way for a consumer to get the effect. If you don't want to cut holes in your ceiling, or bolt a speaker overhead then this is the way to go. I am not trying to convince anyone that these two models are the best thing since sliced bread. What I can tell you is they work, and they work really well. Anyone wanting to DIY an up-firing style speaker, best of luck to ya. I highly recommend you pay very close attention to products already on the market and copy some of the details.  

[Sound.Theory]

Hmmm, do you find Timbre matching to be an issue? I imagine it would be. :/

[Jay L]

Hmmm, do you find Timbre matching to be an issue? I imagine it would be. :/

non issue in my experience

[Paducah Home Theater]

Anyone wanting to DIY an up-firing style speaker, best of luck to ya.

 

It's not that I plan to do such a thing, it's that I can't get a grasp on why it wouldn't be the same or even better.  Any explanation has been really vague... they're psycho-acoustic, copy the details because we know what's up, etc.  What's different about them that makes them work so well, or at least better than a DIY up-firing style speaker?  If they were just an easy solution I'd understand, but some of the wording makes it sounds like there's some kind of special sauce in there.  

Edited July 22, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Jay L]

I could tell you exactly how to make just a standard speaker better, but I can't without permission. What I would tell you would literally be reading the spec book.

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[Nismo]

Gotta say—its finally nice to run this setup.

 

5.2.4 configuration looks almost as good as it sounds.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And here's the mini x a-100 in place (looks like I still have room to add a few more). 

 

Compact little thing, currently set up with the 2 rear heights @ 50wpc.

 

 

 

[Scrappydue]

I don't get it! Why did you pick heigh channels? Why not Dolby ones? That picture of the layout of your room makes no sense compared to what your actually rockin. Modules front and back right?

[Nismo]

I don't get it! Why did you pick heigh channels? Why not Dolby ones? That picture of the layout of your room makes no sense compared to what your actually rockin. Modules front and back right?

Upward firing modules simulate "height speakers" (that's the whole concept behind upward firing speakers). They shoot up—then audio comes back down—from the ceiling. If the front or rear Dolby option was selected—the Atmos specific track would not be sent to the modules. In that instance, the modules would simply act like traditional old school "heights" (where the the sound is merely replicated from the existing/traditional front mains & rear surrounds).  Atmos audio would not be active with that set up.

 

Visually, the Denon interface depicts the module placement as ceiling height, but ceiling speakers or modules are recognized as the same. Its just a generic graphic, representing where the audio source is generated (you don't measure an upward firing module as it goes up, you measure it as it falls from the ceiling). When configuring set up, all Atmos upward firing speakers & ceiling speakers are connected/assigned as "heights". My front pair of module are on my RF-7's. The back pair of modules are on the RS-7's. The graphic Denon depicts was probably created in early 2014—prior to any Atmos modules ever being produced.

 

But you are right... it is rockin! The rear modules are a welcome addition. Not sure how the modules will hold up in your space with the 904's—but they really fill in & connect the dots here. I've had 5 different speakers in place since last year (dipole, direct radiating, concentric array, etc.) & they've all worked with Atmos. Ceiling speakers & Atmos = perfect. Upward firing speakers & Atmos = perfect. Any other combination in between those concepts (such as KTP-101's) could still work (not sure how you would effectively place modules on your 904's if they are behind a screen). By using a KTP-100, you might miss out on some of the crossover/FR effect within the spec, but the plus side of the trade off would be having KTP'100's in place (you might lose subtle patented nuance, but gain with timber matching with your 904's).  

[Scrappydue]

if i do atmos then i will get something like a kpt-8060 and hang them from the ceiling like they intended atmos speakers to be. no modules for me in this room. not high enough ceiling, sit too far back, and as you said how would you put them on there? not right for me, but hanging a single pair above my couch and fishing up a couple wires on the unfinished side of my theater would be cake. just have to figure out if i really want to do this in this home or just hold off till we buy a permanent home and go big in that one.