Jeff Matthews Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Jeff, your entire post makes my point. "Dave's Burgers" still exist and they are the places I MUCH prefer. The owners are doing fine, and their prices are competitive with the 1%. How do you figure that works??? Seriously. How is it possible that Dave's Burgers competes against a giant like McDonalds? Could it be that scale isn't everything? In fact, doesn't it pretty much prove that the big guys are charging WAY more than necessary for their mass produced stuff? Dave Your dream of what Dave's Burger Shack is does not match everyone's experience... including Dave's in my hypothetical. Go back and read it more carefully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 It is really hard to believe that people can't seem to grasp that simple concept. If Joe Sixpack doesn't want to pay the price of a burger, he'll go home and cook one or boil a pot of beans. The price will be adjusted until he is willing to pay it. Rest assured, we get it. You are just not exposing the other half of the equation. Dave worked all his life operating Dave's Burger Shack. He has just the one location, and it's the only work he's had for the last 25 years, since he started his little business. It's done okay. After paying all of the business-related expenses, Dave brings home $67k per year. Dave has a total of 6 employees, all of whom work different shifts. He pays them $9 an hour, but effective January 2016, he will have to pay them $15 an hour. The market refuses to pay even a dime more for Dave's burgers. The burgers are great and all, but "not a penny more." That's the market. Dave must keep the prices the same, or else his long-time, loyal customers are just going to eat at home instead. Dave is in a dilemma. If he keeps prices the same, but pays 67% more in payroll, he will actually take home only $8,500. His family can't live on that. We eat at the local Dave's Burger Shack all the time. Great burgers. I was sorry to hear that it was closing at the end of this year. Keith 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Let's all go to Business 101 class: The PRICE of a thing is not a function of its cost. It's a function of demand and competitive supply. Don't any of you remember the Pet Rock? A typical music CD? Burgers are priced as high as the market will bear, but not a penny less. The cost of labor is managed with all other costs in the same way. Here's a decent analysis: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/08/02/the-real-change-in-the-cost-of-a-big-mac-if-mcdonalds-workers-were-paid-15-an-hour-nothing/ Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Except for one thing... The law imposes a minimum on labor. This means that you can't truly test the "not a penny less" theory when it comes to labor. Quite possibly, many people would be willing to work for several pennies less than the minimum wage. +1 labor! There is no similar protection for the cost of goods. I think you've missed the reference.Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) The market refuses to pay even a dime more for Dave's burgers. I did read it carefully, and it's BS. I'll pay more even if Mickey D swallows the increase (which they won't) because I want a decent product made by my friends and neighbors. What's so hard about that? I am in the process of rejecting the model that has come to typify the city dwelling middle class. We pay about 90.00 a month to keep our lawn. The crew has it down to about 20 minutes under the system they work for. There are 3 of them. Bet they aren't getting minimum wage. They are servants. For the time I am living at the old homestead I'll mow my own lawn. It's really been during this thread the full realization has come to me how much I've been propagandized to expect others to keep me in the lifestyle of "the American dream" with cheap soylent green and lawn care. Think on it. I wasn't raised this way and it's time for me to return to my roots. I was raised not expecting privilege and I've had too much of it. I look forward to blowing off the complete delusion of the "American dream" that has somehow become the norm and going back to the whole idea of "each may as my brother, each man as my friend." These minimum wage people aren't some other class...they are my friends and fellow countrymen. Dave Edited November 16, 2015 by Mallette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 It is really hard to believe that people can't seem to grasp that simple concept. If Joe Sixpack doesn't want to pay the price of a burger, he'll go home and cook one or boil a pot of beans. The price will be adjusted until he is willing to pay it. Rest assured, we get it. You are just not exposing the other half of the equation. Dave worked all his life operating Dave's Burger Shack. He has just the one location, and it's the only work he's had for the last 25 years, since he started his little business. It's done okay. After paying all of the business-related expenses, Dave brings home $67k per year. Dave has a total of 6 employees, all of whom work different shifts. He pays them $9 an hour, but effective January 2016, he will have to pay them $15 an hour. The market refuses to pay even a dime more for Dave's burgers. The burgers are great and all, but "not a penny more." That's the market. Dave must keep the prices the same, or else his long-time, loyal customers are just going to eat at home instead. Dave is in a dilemma. If he keeps prices the same, but pays 67% more in payroll, he will actually take home only $8,500. His family can't live on that. First of all, If he's only making $67k with that, he's got a horrid business to start. But the solution to the wage hike is to raise efficiency, and that is exactly what business people constantly do. Either by process productivity or automation, and or increasing throughout and sales.What you are missing is that various costs are always going up. Rents, franchise nets, electricity, materials, transportation,insurance, and yes wages. The inefficient are mercilessly run out of business by the likes of the most efficient, like McDonalds. An operator of mc Donald usually make about 800k year or more. You certainly must know we've had min wage hikes many times. Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) An operator of mc Donald usually make about 800k year or more. Good point. Operator of Dave's Burgers doesn't make that much. Only a decent living. The Mc dude can absorb 700k and still be at a really good living wage, at least by my standards. Ol' Dave can raise his prices considerably and I'll still buy his better product. Dave Edited November 16, 2015 by Mallette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 You certainly must know we've had min wage hikes many times. I might be wrong, but I don't recall any hikes of 100% +. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Yeah, 50 years ago these we're jobs for kids saving for a car. Now that all the adult jobs have been shipped offshore, this is the crap job left for adults trying to live and raise a family. Have any of you actually seen these people or do you breeze by them like they are ghosts you can't even see. Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 You certainly must know we've had min wage hikes many times. I might be wrong, but I don't recall any hikes of 100% +. Why does that figure in tho the principles?Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 An operator of mc Donald usually make about 800k year or more. Good point. Operator of Dave's Burgers doesn't make that much. Only a decent living. The Mc dude can absorb 700k and still be at a really good living wage, at least by my standards. Ol' Dave can raise his prices considerably and I'll still buy his better product. Dave Right. You are not getting it. You have some cozy idea that you will pay more, a lot more, to continue eating at Dave's so he can pay his employees substantially more. Sure, burgers, yes. But then, how do you reconcile it with they get everything they can, "not a penny more?" Do you think only burger sellers live by that rule? Do you think consumers act differently? They are not price-sensitive like sellers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Yeah, 50 years ago these we're jobs for kids saving for a car. Now that all the adult jobs have been shipped offshore, this is the crap job left for adults trying to live and raise a family. Have any of you actually seen these people or do you breeze by them like they are ghosts you can't even see. Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk ghosts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 You certainly must know we've had min wage hikes many times. I might be wrong, but I don't recall any hikes of 100% +. Why does that figure in tho the principles?Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Because, if there are to be increases, they should be gradual. You don't just go from $7.35 (is that what it is?) to $15.00 overnight. That's far too volatile of a shift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Dave couldn't have afforded the half to 1.5 million it would have cost to start a McDonalds franchise. And yes, I eat out far less than in the past because the cost is too high. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 The market refuses to pay even a dime more for Dave's burgers. The burgers are great and all, but "not a penny more." That's the market. Dave must keep the prices the same, or else his long-time, loyal customers are just going to eat at home instead. Dave is in a dilemma. If he keeps prices the same, but pays 67% more in payroll, he will actually take home only $8,500. His family can't live on that. Even though you read it carefully, it still seems to me you missed the part above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 You certainly must know we've had min wage hikes many times.I might be wrong, but I don't recall any hikes of 100% +.Why does that figure in tho the principles?Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Because, if there are to be increases, they should be gradual. You don't just go from $7.35 (is that what it is?) to $15.00 overnight. That's far too volatile of a shift. Right. Almost no one is proposing a single leap. Most are proposing a 3 year process. Which would be fast better than the way it had been frozen now for years.Movie stars make $20M offer movie and tickets are $15.50, and somehow the usher can't make $15? Obviously this is all due to leverage, and the lack of it. Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Dave couldn't have afforded the half to 1.5 million it would have cost to start a McDonalds franchise. And yes, I eat out far less than in the past because the cost is too high. Best point yet. Totally supports what I am saying. No way ANYTHING in a McDonald's is worth that much. Dave's Burger's can start for a fraction of that, serve a vastly superior product, and pay a competitive wage. While now the exception, they are still out there and I drive MILES to get to one to avoid the other. Yes, I am a throwback. Proud as hell of it. When I get a burger it's most often from someone who knows my name and asks how my son is doing, not someone who says "Welcome to the one percent. May I take your order." Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 As wages increase technology replaces humans productivity skyrockets and you're right back to where we are now. More government assistance from now fewer pockets. This has been going on for 40 years that I know of. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Sorry Dave, I'm not paying 8 bucks for your burgers no matter how much I like them. Of course, Dave could fire some of his help and he and his wife could work 75 + hours a week. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Precisely the point. They don't cost that much, and NOBODY has to buy them. That's what a free market is all about. Totally in favor of it. What I am NOT in favor of is a servant class. Cook up a pot of beans and cornbread if you don't want to pay a fair price for someone else to cook your meal. Works for me. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Except now someone is without a job and Dave's family is working harder than ever to stay afloat. worst case... Ok, so they don't make it... most restaurants fail anyway I suppose. Investment gone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.