Minimum wage. Should it be $15?

[Jim Naseum]

 Much less regard for others than we show.

 

I don't judge our culture based on the lowest out there, I judge it against the highest. Shooting for just above the low, isn't very much of a challenge. 

Edited November 15, 2015 by jo56steph74

[Jim Naseum]

Preamble to the Constitution

 

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

It's short and sweet and powerful, while at the same time holding no actual power. It's a moral compact. It defines the good purpose of our coming together. It holds no legal powers because it is a moral declaration. How exactly do you promote the general welfare? Can you tell when you are and when you aren't? What is justice? Tranquility? What is liberty? And what is the meaning or an ordination? 

 

No intelligent person, versed in the classical philosophies of the western world, like those who write these words, could extract from that preamble that we are establishing a "free for all, where each man must fend for himself - to the victor go the spoils and the devil take the hindmost." You can not possibly extract that meaning from the preamble. 

 

It's one of the most interesting parts of our historical creation. It has no formal power, and yet seems to contain the ultimate commands to the population.  Why should the economy of that nation escape the implications in the preamble?

[Jeff Matthews]

 

yep, it died many threads ago.... but I look forward to $15/slice pizza.

 

So, the 1% percent have sold even you on the idea that the cost of a piece of crappy pizza is mostly in the minimum wage person behind the counter?  I really can't believe people get that suckered. 

 

Dave

 

 

Oh, but it is!  Try having some employees and see what happens to your profits.

[Jeff Matthews]

 

 Much less regard for others than we show.

 

I don't judge our culture based on the lowest out there, I judge it against the highest. Shooting for just above the low, isn't very much of a challenge. 

 

 

Yep.  That's what I thought.  It's great to aim high, but never forget to pat yourself on the back once in a while.

[Jeff Matthews]

Preamble to the Constitution

 

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

It's short and sweet and powerful, while at the same time holding no actual power. It's a moral compact. It defines the good purpose of our coming together. It holds no legal powers because it is a moral declaration. How exactly do you promote the general welfare? Can you tell when you are and when you aren't? What is justice? Tranquility? What is liberty? And what is the meaning or an ordination? 

 

No intelligent person, versed in the classical philosophies of the western world, like those who write these words, could extract from that preamble that we are establishing a "free for all, where each man must fend for himself - to the victor go the spoils and the devil take the hindmost." You can not possibly extract that meaning from the preamble. 

 

It's one of the most interesting parts of our historical creation. It has no formal power, and yet seems to contain the ultimate commands to the population.  Why should the economy of that nation escape the implications in the preamble?

 

Check out the part that's called "the Amendment clause."  There, you will find your answer.  There is law, and there is rhetoric.  These, of necessity, are two different things.  The former is more or less a common denominator of minimally-acceptable, required behavior.  There is not much need in amending rhetoric.  It is usually blossomy anyway.  However, if you want to get down to where the rubber meets the road, look in the law.  This is where the mandates go.  And if the mandates don't seem "blossomy" enough to enough people, we can always amend.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Jeff Matthews

[Gilbert]

 

yep, it died many threads ago.... but I look forward to $15/slice pizza.

 

So, the 1% percent have sold even you on the idea that the cost of a piece of crappy pizza is mostly in the minimum wage person behind the counter?  I really can't believe people get that suckered. 

 

Dave

 

 

 

LOL, stop trying to rationalize the solution. It's not as easy as offering a minimum wage increase.

 

I would think that at your age, and having seen this played out countless times during your lifetime, you would have figured it out by now. That idea only works on foolish voters, and on paper. Only the politicians never admit there being a huge dumbasss-factor. Should I explain what that factor is, or are you getting it yet?

 

If you can't see the tree in front of you, it's alright by me; but at $15/slice, I'd want better than a crappy pizza.... at least make it Chicago Style.

 

 

EDIT:

I see Jeff understands the ramifications of the foolish idea that raising minimum is going to somehow make life better. 

 

Just ask the fool in Washington (can't remember his name or the type of business) that not too long ago believed as you. He rationalized his approach to the problem and took a personal pay cut, so that he could offer all his employees an pay increased. I suspected he just wanted to make national headlines, which he did, twice. 

 

It took him a few months, but he figured it out "after the fact"..... it doesn't even work at the micro-scale.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Gilbert

[Jeff Matthews]

 

 

yep, it died many threads ago.... but I look forward to $15/slice pizza.

 

So, the 1% percent have sold even you on the idea that the cost of a piece of crappy pizza is mostly in the minimum wage person behind the counter?  I really can't believe people get that suckered. 

 

Dave

 

 

 

LOL,  Dave, if you can't see the tree in front of you, it's alright by me; but at $15/slice, I'd want better than a crappy pizza.... at least make it Chicago Style.

 

 

Seriously, how much flour, pepperoni and onion does one of these employees process in an hour?  Except for the busiest peak hours, I'd imagine it's not enough per employee to have a combined value which exceeds that employee's wage.

[Mallette]

Oh, but it is! Try having some employees and see what happens to your profits.

 

Been there, done that.  Started one guy at 12.00 an hour and raised his pay to 35 an hour within a year without him asking.  Why?  Because he was a fireball and making me a lot of money.  Turned out code like you wouldn't believe.

 

And that was on a fixed price contract where I could have just kept that money and he'd have been happy.  But, you see, I am not a 1 percenter and prefer to see to it that people get an honest deal.

 

Now, as to your claim all the middle class would go broke paying for happy meals if we went to 15.00 I fail to see any evidence except that of McDonalds, Walmart, and Cinemark, etc. 

 

Here's my bet:  Assuming the companies absorbed nothing I'll bet the price of a 6.00 heart attack meal would not go past 7.50.  On the rare occasion I eat that stuff for whatever reason it wouldn't be a problem for me knowing the person behind the counter was being treated like a human rather than a servant.  As to the rest who've become dependent on eating this garbage I've no sympathy.  I can cook a pot of beans with ham hock for a couple of dollars I MUCH prefer (and so does my family) anyway. 

 

My opinion is that we, the middle class, are as hell bent on keeping these servants in their place as the one percent are in keeping us fat and happy in ours and for basically the same reasons.

 

Feel free to refute those numbers...they are pure gut.  But I am sure that data can be had for those who really want to know. 

 

Dave

[Mallette]

Seriously, how much flour, pepperoni and onion does one of these employees process in an hour?

 

PROCESS?  Maybe at the Chicago style place Gil referenced, but that stuff comes from freezers and bags at Pizza Hut and the like. 

 

Dave

[Jeff Matthews]

Now, as to your claim all the middle class would go broke paying for happy meals if we went to 15.00 I fail to see any evidence except that of McDonalds, Walmart, and Cinemark, etc. 

 

You have misunderstood our position.  We did not say raising the minimum wage would make everyone go broke buying inflated hamburgers.  Wrong!

 

We said that prices would increase by way of passing-through the added cost to the consumer.  But the consumer doesn't go broke!  He got a pay-raise, too... if he was minimum wage.  If he was not minimum wage, the only way he could sustain the income spread he enjoyed before the bump in minimum wage is to bump his own wage as well.  Charge more.  Demand a raise.  Whatever it is which insures that there is a pay-spread between managers and janitors.  If that doesn't happen, then we begin seeing where janitors make the same as managers.  Then, you get people wondering why anybody would want to be a manager.  Then, you get a need for incentives to induce people to be managers.  Then...

 

How does it not all wash?

[Jeff Matthews]

 

Seriously, how much flour, pepperoni and onion does one of these employees process in an hour?

 

PROCESS?  Maybe at the Chicago style place Gil referenced, but that stuff comes from freezers and bags at Pizza Hut and the like. 

 

Dave

 

 

Yeah, and that stuff is cheap as dirt!  By "process," I mean "handle in a manner in which ingredients are made into a finished product." I bet the labor cost is about as high as the cost of ingredients.  Maybe even higher.

[T2K]

I was thinking about working part-time after I retired but it just doesn't pay enough.

 

Keith

[Mallette]

I bet the labor cost is about as high as the cost of ingredients.

 

Wouldn't surprise me at places like Taco Bell where you get what appears to be Gaines meal in a simulated corn tortilla and pay a ridiculous sum for it.  However, my guess is that in many cases it's 20 percent, maybe 25 percent.  More serious restaurants a bit more. 

 

I THINK (again, too lazy to do the research) that 9 dollars as about par in Houston for a Mickey D or Sonic employee.  Raising that to 15 would be a bit over a third.  If they are 25% of the cost of a Classic Cholesterol feast then we're talking about a 50 cent, maybe 75 cent, addition to the 6 bucks or so you normally pay for these excess pounds. 

 

Dave

[WMcD]

It is a bit OT but.

I take a math class from time to time at Chicago's community college. I'm older than most of the professors.

This community college scheme is just magnificent in that it allows citizens to build college credit a very low cost.

So if the question is how the underclass can get above the minimum wage, the community colleges are part of the answer.

WMcD

I've learned something - in our changing world, many people can't get decent paying jobs even if they have degrees. The issue is that they stay in school, get the degree, and they have no experience.  The world is currently looking for plug-n-play personnel, people that have experience as well as education. The ironic thing is that the education doesn't have to mean a college degree.  Certifications with experience are valued more than a college degree with no experience (as I believe it should be - experience trumps a degree). 

 

I currently encourage military members who have technical skills to have those skills transferred into a civilian certification. This is one thing that the military doesn't tell you. I've received messages form military members that have done this telling me thanks for the information. Now they can make informed decisions on staying or leaving the military, and have the experience to jump directly into the civilian world (with the added benefit of Veteran's preference).

 

There are many vets making minimum wage because no one in the education and training department told them about this.  There are many things I didn't find out until I became the LPO of a training department. After I left the military, I told myself that I would insure that young enlisted service men and women that I encounter - learn about these hidden advantages that they have rightly earned.  Believe it or not, most military members that are at least an E-5 have the equivalent of an AA degree.

 

If you are military or prior military - don't get caught up in the high priced world of college education (until you have to).  Take CLEP/DANTES exams for free, even civilians can take them for $80 a pop, that's better than paying $300 a semester hour for things you already know.  Get your ACE transcript from you SMART profile, have it transferred to college credit, you'll be surprised at what you really know and what you're qualified for.

Okay, I understand what you're saying.

Still. Suppose a fellow or gal comes out of the local high school with a diploma and no experience. They might well get a job flipping burgers. The resume is empty.

In the Chicago system they can attend one of the several community colleges and get an associate degree including one in computer science at the cost of about $100 per credit hour. I daresay it is the same in other cities and states.

Now they have something. A cynic will say it is pointless. I don't think so.

Yes, they face the age old hurdle that you can't get a job without experience. Mr. employer wants a drop-in part. Maybe it is worse than ever.

But they're a darn bit better than just a high school diploma.

I understand the thread is about many other issues. I'm just talking about some high school grad getting ahead and taking the next step.

WMcD

[Jim Naseum]

Let's all go to Business 101 class:

The PRICE of a thing is not a function of its cost. It's a function of demand and competitive supply. Don't any of you remember the Pet Rock? A typical music CD?

Burgers are priced as high as the market will bear, but not a penny less. The cost of labor is managed with all other costs in the same way.

Here's a decent analysis: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/08/02/the-real-change-in-the-cost-of-a-big-mac-if-mcdonalds-workers-were-paid-15-an-hour-nothing/

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

[Jeff Matthews]

Let's all go to Business 101 class:

The PRICE of a thing is not a function of its cost. It's a function of demand and competitive supply. Don't any of you remember the Pet Rock? A typical music CD?

Burgers are priced as high as the market will bear, but not a penny less. The cost of labor is managed with all other costs in the same way.

Here's a decent analysis: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/08/02/the-real-change-in-the-cost-of-a-big-mac-if-mcdonalds-workers-were-paid-15-an-hour-nothing/

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

 

Except for one thing...  The law imposes a minimum on labor.  This means that you can't truly test the "not a penny less" theory when it comes to labor.  Quite possibly, many people would be willing to work for several pennies less than the minimum wage.  +1 labor!

 

There is no similar protection for the cost of goods.

[Mallette]

Burgers are priced as high as the market will bear, but not a penny less.

 

It is really hard to believe that people can't seem to grasp that simple concept.  If Joe Sixpack doesn't want to pay the price of a burger, he'll go home and cook one or boil a pot of beans.  The price will be adjusted until he is willing to pay it.

 

Maintaining a servant class is not something the middle class has to do...it's something the 1% has to do.  If you read history, the middle class all had servants to some extent or the other back at the turn of the century that in many ways were the fast food of the time.  That time changed with fast food, big box stores, technology, etc.  Washing machines became cheaper than laundry women. 

 

Dave

[Jeff Matthews]

It is really hard to believe that people can't seem to grasp that simple concept.  If Joe Sixpack doesn't want to pay the price of a burger, he'll go home and cook one or boil a pot of beans.  The price will be adjusted until he is willing to pay it.  

 

Rest assured, we get it.  You are just not exposing the other half of the equation.

 

Dave worked all his life operating Dave's Burger Shack.  He has just the one location, and it's the only work he's had for the last 25 years, since he started his little business.  It's done okay.  After paying all of the business-related expenses, Dave brings home $67k per year.  Dave has a total of 6 employees, all of whom work different shifts.  He pays them $9 an hour, but effective January 2016, he will have to pay them $15 an hour.  The market refuses to pay even a dime more for Dave's burgers.  The burgers are great and all, but "not a penny more."  That's the market. Dave must keep the prices the same, or else his long-time, loyal customers are just going to eat at home instead.  Dave is in a dilemma.  If he keeps prices the same, but pays 67% more in payroll, he will actually take home only $8,500. His family can't live on that.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Jeff Matthews

[BigStewMan]

while i know that some are sick with greed, i don’t view fast food workers (example) as being a servant class...i’m not of the opinion that a living wage should be attached to all jobs.  i think it’s unreasonable to expect to raise a family on the wages from a job that once upon a time was filled by a high schooler trying to earn money for his first car. 

[Mallette]

Jeff, your entire post makes my point.  "Dave's Burgers" still exist and they are the places I MUCH prefer.  The owners are doing fine, and their prices are competitive with the 1%.  How do you figure that works???

 

Seriously.  How is it possible that Dave's Burgers competes against a giant like McDonalds?  Could it be that scale isn't everything?

 

In fact, doesn't it pretty much prove that the big guys are charging WAY more than necessary for their mass produced stuff? 

 

Dave

Edited November 16, 2015 by Mallette