Jim Naseum Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) Yeah, 50 years ago these we're jobs for kids saving for a car. Now that all the adult jobs have been shipped offshore, this is the crap job left for adults trying to live and raise a family. Have any of you actually seen these people or do you breeze by them like they are ghosts you can't even see. Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Shipped offshore because of LABOR RATES. It's now happening in China. They are offshoring to cheaper labor countries. You keep saying that greed is a new thing. THAT IS A FALSE STATEMENT. You saying it doesn't make it true. Business people have been down right ruthless, keep prices as high as the market will stand, labor as low as it will retain workers and try to put the competitors out of business. Companies are in business to make a profit. The larger the profit, the better for investors' retirements. Have you or Dave answered: WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH EVERYONE ELSE'S PAY WHO WAS MAKING ~ $15/HR? The ones who EARNED their way up from $7.50 to $12, the ones who EARNED the $16, are you going to bump their pay up by 100% or only give them a $7.50/hr raise? Several people have asked this. Please feel free to ignore this again. What about the tougher jobs where a factory already pays 15, then someone can quit to work at an easier job for the same pay? Sorry Dave's Burgers went out of business. They are great people. Sorry that they depleted their nest egg to keep people working while keeping cost down. 3. Now, I have a question for you. How do you inform yourself on economic issues? What are the sources of your information, and what do you study? Which economists do you follow? What business press do you follow? Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk That QA response is a load of crock. Why don't you quote the economist who believes raising min. wage is a solution, and don't forget to include their qualifications and political affiliation. As for me, I've lived it, and have seen it played out countless times during my life, and every time it's the same. It's like a big pile of dog poop, you don't have to get down on your knees to know it stinks. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk Your objection seems to be based on nothing more than political dogma. Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Edited November 16, 2015 by jo56steph74 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Economic Theory Hypothesis: Higher wages, especially in the lowest sector, represents all new demand because all the increase is spent in the short term. New demand required new production, and new production drives new jobs. All of that drives increased profits and higher stock prices. Taken together that's known as prosperity. Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 OK, price of a Super Stroke is 6.00. Labor is 25%, or a 1.50. Wage goes from 9 to 15.00, Looks to me like your Super Stroke is now going to cost 6.60 or thereabouts. Head math isn't my best area but I believe that's about right. I don't think people are suddenly going to stay home and cook over that or the middle class is going to have to buy a 60" TV instead of an 80" over that. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) If people could raise prices for some internal unseen reason....... THEY WOULD! if a burger will sell for $6.60 in place of, $6.00, that's what will be charged! Maximum price is always charged. It's the competition that determine price, not your internal cost. Suppose the owners fry machine breaks and he had to shell out $5000 for a new one. Are you all arguing he simply raises his prices to cover it? How about when his wife want a new Mercedes? Guys, prices are NOT based on internal cost! Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Edited November 16, 2015 by jo56steph74 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 If people could raise prices for some internal unseen reason....... THEY WOULD! if a burger will sell for $6.60 in place of, $6.00, that's what will be charged! Maximum price is always charged. It's the competition that determine price, not your internal cost. Suppose the owners fry machine breaks and he had to shell out $5000 for a new one. Are you all arguing he simply raises his prices to cover it? How about when his wife want a new Mercedes? Guys, prices are NOT based on internal cost! Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk When all the competition has higher internal costs, they all have to raise prices. You don't understand the difference between individual, outlier issues (like a broken oven) and aggregate issues (like wage rates). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 You don't understand the difference between individual, outlier issues (like a broken oven) and aggregate issues (like wage rates). So, if the wage rate for all goes up, prices are adjusted accordingly by all. What a concept! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) OK, price of a Super Stroke is 6.00. Labor is 25%, or a 1.50. Wage goes from 9 to 15.00, Looks to me like your Super Stroke is now going to cost 6.60 or thereabouts. Head math isn't my best area but I believe that's about right. I don't think people are suddenly going to stay home and cook over that or the middle class is going to have to buy a 60" TV instead of an 80" over that. Dave Clearly, math is not your forte. You can't take 25% of the wage hike. If wage rate goes up by 2/3, then $1.50 must also go up by 2/3. The labor component of a Super Stroke is now $2.50. The Super Stroke should now sell for $7.00 in order to maintain the same profit/loss. Let's engage in some more math. Add fries and a drink, the price of which went up, too, just like the price of the Super Stroke. Bring the wife and your 2 kids. We are no longer talking about a measly extra $1. We are talking about adding $10 to the tab. Many people will stay home at that rate. Edited November 16, 2015 by Jeff Matthews Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 You don't understand the difference between individual, outlier issues (like a broken oven) and aggregate issues (like wage rates). So, if the wage rate for all goes up, prices are adjusted accordingly by all. What a concept! Dave OMG! You finally admitted it. Dave, welcome to the club! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 If people could raise prices for some internal unseen reason....... THEY WOULD! if a burger will sell for $6.60 in place of, $6.00, that's what will be charged! Maximum price is always charged. It's the competition that determine price, not your internal cost. Suppose the owners fry machine breaks and he had to shell out $5000 for a new one. Are you all arguing he simply raises his prices to cover it? How about when his wife want a new Mercedes? Guys, prices are NOT based on internal cost! Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk When all the competition has higher internal costs, they all have to raise prices. You don't understand the difference between individual, outlier issues (like a broken oven) and aggregate issues (like wage rates). You just don't accept that the ultimate driver is EFFICIENCY AND PRODUCTIVITY. The scheme is dynamic, not fixed. The model you keep peddling is a fixed model. What actually happens in a dynamic system is that when labor goes up, someone invents another level of labor saving productivity. E.g. a machine to wrap the burger, that saves labor. If people would get off their political dogma and learn the economic system, this would all make sense. Ever heard of the invention of the "assembly line?" Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) You just don't accept that the ultimate driver is EFFICIENCY AND PRODUCTIVITY. You don't understand that in the business world, where profit is the motive/goal, EFFICIENCY means "cost," and PRODUCTIVITY means produce more at less cost. It is not as EFFICIENT to spend $15 an hour on labor when you can EFFICIENTLY spend $7.50. Edited November 16, 2015 by Jeff Matthews 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) The interesting thing about all this is that the ones that decry the humanity aspect seem to really only care about the Americans. Nobody's pushing for higher pay for Chinese workers. Why is that? You want Best Buy workers making minimum wage, assuming it's a single mother supporting a family, but don't care about the Apple factories where they had to install nets to prevent suicides from jumping off the building. How can you cry about living wages but you really don't care about the slave wages overseas? Guess what's going to happen if this wage hike goes through? More jobs are going to go to the slave drivers in Asia. Edited November 16, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 The same way you can decry global warming and flit around the world in a private jet and great, big SUV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 wage rate goes up by 2/3, But it would only go up by a little over a third. Math is still good as I stated it. Average fast food wage is about 9.00. 15.00 is NOT 2/3 more. In any event, you only changed the price another 50 cents. People would pay, and forget about it quickly. They always do. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 pushing for higher pay for Chinese workers. That's their job. I don't get a vote in China. If they want higher wages they need to do something about it. We can't even run our own country worth a damn. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 You just don't accept that the ultimate driver is EFFICIENCY AND PRODUCTIVITY. You don't understand that in the business world, where profit is the motive/goal, EFFICIENCY means "cost," and PRODUCTIVITY means produce more at less cost. It is not as EFFICIENT to spend $15 an hour on labor when you can EFFICIENTLY spend $7.50. That's why the minimum is regulated by law. because left to its own devices, business would pay $0. It's called slavery, and has been used for as long as man has been on earth. The micro-economics are totally well understood here. When the minimum is forced up, the owners search for more productivity. Inventors come up with a new machine, which drives productivity up. The demand for those machines rise, and that owner must now hire more workers. And the wheel turns. It's been like this since the industrial revolution. Minimum Wages are regulated for social purpose of spreading prosperity, and they are accommodated by micro economics of productivity and efficiency. It's similar for utilities. In place of having them go broke and leave people without power, we regulate RATES to assure they have a profit. To pay for these regulated rates, we need to be sure people have sufficient earnings. These are what our regulated economy is all about. We don't believe in free markets, because we don't believe in the lack of prosperity for large segments of the population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 wage rate goes up by 2/3, Average fast food wage is about 9.00. 15.00 is NOT 2/3 more. What's 15 - 9? What's 2/3 times 9? ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 The interesting thing about all this is that the ones that decry the humanity aspect seem to really only care about the Americans. Nobody's pushing for higher pay for Chinese workers. Why is that? You want Best Buy workers making minimum wage, assuming it's a single mother supporting a family, but don't care about the Apple factories where they had to install nets to prevent suicides from jumping off the building. How can you cry about living wages but you really don't care about the slave wages overseas? Guess what's going to happen if this wage hike goes through? More jobs are going to go to the slave drivers in Asia. The cure is in post 597 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 You just don't accept that the ultimate driver is EFFICIENCY AND PRODUCTIVITY. You don't understand that in the business world, where profit is the motive/goal, EFFICIENCY means "cost," and PRODUCTIVITY means produce more at less cost. It is not as EFFICIENT to spend $15 an hour on labor when you can EFFICIENTLY spend $7.50. That's why the minimum is regulated by law. because left to its own devices, business would pay $0. It's called slavery, and has been used for as long as man has been on earth. The micro-economics are totally well understood here. When the minimum is forced up, the owners search for more productivity. Inventors come up with a new machine, which drives productivity up. The demand for those machines rise, and that owner must now hire more workers. And the wheel turns. It's been like this since the industrial revolution. Minimum Wages are regulated for social purpose of spreading prosperity, and they are accommodated by micro economics of productivity and efficiency. It's similar for utilities. In place of having them go broke and leave people without power, we regulate RATES to assure they have a profit. To pay for these regulated rates, we need to be sure people have sufficient earnings. These are what our regulated economy is all about. We don't believe in free markets, because we don't believe in the lack of prosperity for large segments of the population. Obvious dodge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Nobody's pushing for higher pay for Chinese workers. Why is that? The Chinese workers aren't going to be paying for my Social Security and Medicare, right? We don't have a world government. Maybe in the future, but not today. Advocacy is about interests. The Chinese advocate for their interests, and Americans need to advocate for theirs. There is however a world forum for global issues of labor, and it is called the WTO. Sadly, only plutocrats and non-elected bureaucrats run the WTO, and workers throughout the world have no say, no voice no access to these global policy makers, who work ONLY for the greater interest of the plutocrats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 You just don't accept that the ultimate driver is EFFICIENCY AND PRODUCTIVITY. You don't understand that in the business world, where profit is the motive/goal, EFFICIENCY means "cost," and PRODUCTIVITY means produce more at less cost. It is not as EFFICIENT to spend $15 an hour on labor when you can EFFICIENTLY spend $7.50. That's why the minimum is regulated by law. because left to its own devices, business would pay $0. It's called slavery, and has been used for as long as man has been on earth. The micro-economics are totally well understood here. When the minimum is forced up, the owners search for more productivity. Inventors come up with a new machine, which drives productivity up. The demand for those machines rise, and that owner must now hire more workers. And the wheel turns. It's been like this since the industrial revolution. Minimum Wages are regulated for social purpose of spreading prosperity, and they are accommodated by micro economics of productivity and efficiency. It's similar for utilities. In place of having them go broke and leave people without power, we regulate RATES to assure they have a profit. To pay for these regulated rates, we need to be sure people have sufficient earnings. These are what our regulated economy is all about. We don't believe in free markets, because we don't believe in the lack of prosperity for large segments of the population. Obvious dodge. No dodge of any kind. It's exactly how the US economic system works. It must accommodate heavy regulation, and sound economics. It is always a mix, or a blend of INTERESTS. it is never single-sided. For those whose only knowledge here is political, and that's most of the posters, they fail to appreciate the economic theories at work, and just can't put the pieces together. "Minimum wage is doo-doo poop" doesn't make the grade. The US has been at this regulated economy for long enough for anyone to study how it works and predict pretty closely what will happen when various "levers" are pulled. There are HUNDREDS of movable levers. Some will help the rich, others the poor, some will help labor, some will help investors, and so on. Right now, the rich are luxuriating in greater benefits then they have had since the Gilded Age. Workers are doing very poorly. That means some of the levers need to be pulled for the interest of the workers, and minimum wage is a little bit of help. A bigger help would be the negation of the WTO and the NAFTA, but workers don't have the political pull to make that happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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