Need Help Picking a sub for my set up, im lost

[Paducah Home Theater]

I'm not asking about night clubs, concerts, 2 channel systems, or car audio though. I'm specifically asking how many walls of 18's in a home theater you've heard when you say that a single horn loaded 15 is louder than and sounds better than a wall of 18's while downplaying 20 hz and below. At least with Steven I know he has a frame of reference and can directly compare.

[derrickdj1]

The OP is better going DIY with a limited budget.  Horn or direct radiator can both deliver equal performance.  As far as loud, anything over 120 db is for demo purposes because you will go deaf listening that loud!!!  I have heard horn systems and direct radiators systems and both can deliver equal performance.  My UM 18 ported boxes are as clean as any horn system that I have heard.  The key is buy or build what you like and, like what you buy or build. 

 

You can pair the RF 83's with smaller subs. I had the RF 7's with smaller subs like the SVS, Bic, ect.   If you want a bad a$$ system, then paired the 83's up with some big and bad a$$ subs.

Edited November 29, 2015 by derrickdj1

[jason str]

I'm not asking about night clubs, concerts, 2 channel systems, or car audio though. I'm specifically asking how many walls of 18's in a home theater you've heard when you say that a single horn loaded 15 is louder than and sounds better than a wall of 18's while downplaying 20 hz and below. At least with Steven I know he has a frame of reference and can directly compare.

 

I don't recall ever mentioning a wall of 18" s in a home theater or 20 Hz anything.

 

Putting words in my mouth is helping how ?

[DizRotus]

My 2 cents argues for multiple subs. Earl Geddes explains the advantages of multiple subs in a paper that is not readily available to me while on this iPad.

It fit my needs, budget and skills to build 4 DIY Lilmike Anarchy Exodus tapped horn subs. The relatively low cost and compact footprint made multiple subs the best choice for my small space. One was good, two were better but four smoothed out the bass making everything sound better. YMMV

Good luck with your pursuit of bass.

[Paducah Home Theater]

 

I'm not asking about night clubs, concerts, 2 channel systems, or car audio though. I'm specifically asking how many walls of 18's in a home theater you've heard when you say that a single horn loaded 15 is louder than and sounds better than a wall of 18's while downplaying 20 hz and below. At least with Steven I know he has a frame of reference and can directly compare.

 

I don't recall ever mentioning a wall of 18" s in a home theater or 20 Hz anything.

 

Putting words in my mouth is helping how ?

 

 

Could have sworn you used that exact phrase, wall of 18's, possibly in the ultimate sub build thread but can't remember, and you and possibly another horn fan or two downplayed the subsonic stuff when specifically asked about it.  

[jason str]

 

 

I'm not asking about night clubs, concerts, 2 channel systems, or car audio though. I'm specifically asking how many walls of 18's in a home theater you've heard when you say that a single horn loaded 15 is louder than and sounds better than a wall of 18's while downplaying 20 hz and below. At least with Steven I know he has a frame of reference and can directly compare.

 

I don't recall ever mentioning a wall of 18" s in a home theater or 20 Hz anything.

 

Putting words in my mouth is helping how ?

 

 

Could have sworn you used that exact phrase, wall of 18's, possibly in the ultimate sub build thread but can't remember, and you and possibly another horn fan or two downplayed the subsonic stuff when specifically asked about it.  

 

 

Here is my quote.

 

Brushing off a horn loaded sub is a really bad choice, you could stack multiple 18's,from floor to ceiling add 1000's of watts of power and still there will be no comparison in sound.

 

Missing minute details and high distortion will be result.

 

By using all those expensive drivers you could have one built for you.

 

Look into a 18" x 21" x 72" THTLP and stand it in a corner, best use of space i can think of.

 

End quote

 

 

My table tuba with the 10" driver in a minimum width cabinet outperforms any single 18" or smaller subwoofer i ever heard.

 

Kept up with my La Scala's under some heavy fire. The THT was just coasting by even in a larger room.

 

Just started a new THTLP today in fact with a 12" driver and a 21" width.

 

Pictures available upon request.

[Ceptorman]

I would love to see pics of your build Jason, I find this thread very informative. 

[derrickdj1]

As I stated earlier, after a certain db level is reached, anything else is demo/bragging rights only since you will go deaf.  As for distortion, many direct radiator subs have very low distortion, less that 5% and 1 or 2 % in most of there bandwidth.  Once again, below a certain point may be measurable but, not auditory to 95% of the population.  Every sub design is a compromise on some aspect.  My bass/sub system is very low distortion and can do over 135 db's but I can't use it at that high level without wearing ear protection which brings up the Duh moment.  The system is used 95% for 2 ch music.

 

Other than the cost of the amp, watts are not a big deal between direct radiators and horn subs.  Watts are relatively cheap and not a major consideration IMHO in choosing a sub design.  As far as power management, the direct radiators only require high watts with movie peaks with low Hz content.  Then it is of such a short duration that it is insignificant.  I run 8 big subs on 7 I Nuke amps and the electric bill has not changed for the most part compared to running no subs.

 

As I learned years ago doing research, everything measurable on the micro level is not significant on the macro level.

 

If you are not tuning the bass system with REW or similar, the peaks and valleys in the bass can swing 30 db's or more across the sub bandwidth which is much more audible than small difference in sub distortion between the different designs. Also a non-linear FR is a big audible problem.  This along with uncorrected reveb is a bigger problems for most home HT and 2 ch listeners.

Edited November 29, 2015 by derrickdj1

[jason str]

I would love to see pics of your build Jason, I find this thread very informative. 

 

Kind of you to ask.

 

Cut up a bunch of panels this morning and glued on a couple this afternoon.

 

The build will be a downfiring version with legs, notice the 8 foot length of the end panels.

 

6 foot cabinet + the 18" legs is really tall but it takes up minimum floor space.

 

Edited November 29, 2015 by jason str

[Quiet_Hollow]

possibly another horn fan or two downplayed the subsonic stuff when specifically asked about it.

You mean this?

 

 

1. Notice they don't include the important stuff for home theater. The lowest they measure at is 40 hz. The fun hasn't even started at that point.

Measuring at 40 Hz vs 20 Hz doesn't matter. The data is differential. Same driver. The really important thing is "they" sampled above, through, and below the intended passbands.

 

That post was in regards to distortion, not extension.

 

"Horn fan"??  Take a good look around.

[Paducah Home Theater]

I don't recall ever mentioning a wall of 18" s in a home theater

 

Putting words in my mouth is helping how ?

 

Here is my quote.

 

Brushing off a horn loaded sub is a really bad choice, you could stack multiple 18's,from floor to ceiling add 1000's of watts of power and still there will be no comparison in sound.

My bad. Totally different obviously.

 

 

My table tuba with the 10" driver in a minimum width cabinet outperforms any single 18" or smaller subwoofer i ever heard.

I don't think anybody would question this. Single subs in standard enclosures suck, especially sealed ones.

 

 

Performance wise would equal multiple high performance 18" drivers but sound better

This is all I'm interested in. I can't tell that you've ever actually heard multiple high performance 18's in a home theater setup.

 

That post was in regards to distortion, not extension.

I just think it's a mistake to ignore extension in home theater. You guys think it's a mistake to ignore distortion in home theater. One of these is very important during explosions, dinosaur stomping, helicopter takeoffs, etc. My only question was who exactly has experienced both strategies, both several 18's as well as a single 15" horn which you guys deem as being better? Scrappy was the only one I was aware of and he was underwhelmed for HT. Derrick has heard both as well, he seems to think his 18's are just as clean sounding.

Edited November 29, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[jason str]

 

I don't recall ever mentioning a wall of 18" s in a home theater

 

Putting words in my mouth is helping how ?

 

Here is my quote.

 

Brushing off a horn loaded sub is a really bad choice, you could stack multiple 18's,from floor to ceiling add 1000's of watts of power and still there will be no comparison in sound.

My bad. Totally different obviously.

 

A wall of subs and a stack are very different, nice imagination though.

 

 

My table tuba with the 10" driver in a minimum width cabinet outperforms any single 18" or smaller subwoofer i ever heard.

I don't think anybody would question this. Single subs suck, especially sealed ones.

 

If its done right sealed can be OK & really much depends on the room size.

 

I prefer ported for most builds.

 

 

Performance wise would equal multiple high performance 18" drivers but sound better

This is all I'm interested in. I can't tell that you've actually ever heard multiple high performance 18's in a home theater setup.

 

Home, car, clubs, outdoor venues, concerts from small to big.

 

Infinite baffle, ported, sealed, horn loaded.

 

Check.  Can't fool me

 

21" 18"s, 15"s 12"s 10"s  multiples are better. What is your fascination with 18"s

 

Got that sub built yet ?

 

 

That post was in regards to distortion, not extension.

I just think it's a mistake to ignore extension in home theater. You guys think it's a mistake to ignore distortion in home theater. One of these is very important during explosions, dinosaur stomping, helicopter takeoffs, etc. My only question was who exactly has experienced both strategies, both several 18's as well as a 15" horn? Scrappy was the only one I was aware of and he was underwhelmed for HT. Derrick has heard both as well.

 

[DizRotus]

I'm not suggesting that Geddes is the only word in sub placement, but it is interesting reading.  It's unfortunate that PWK was not professionally active when subs for movie explosions were the norm.  Then again, he might not have been interested.

 

IMO, two or more good subs beat 1 excellent sub. YMMV

Setting up subwoofers.pdf

Edited November 29, 2015 by DizRotus

[Scrappydue]

I don't recall ever mentioning a wall of 18" s in a home theater

Putting words in my mouth is helping how ?

Here is my quote.

Brushing off a horn loaded sub is a really bad choice, you could stack multiple 18's,from floor to ceiling add 1000's of watts of power and still there will be no comparison in sound.

My bad. Totally different obviously.

A wall of subs and a stack are very different, nice imagination though.

My table tuba with the 10" driver in a minimum width cabinet outperforms any single 18" or smaller subwoofer i ever heard.

I don't think anybody would question this. Single subs suck, especially sealed ones.

If its done right sealed can be OK & really much depends on the room size.

I prefer ported for most builds.

Performance wise would equal multiple high performance 18" drivers but sound better

This is all I'm interested in. I can't tell that you've actually ever heard multiple high performance 18's in a home theater setup.

Home, car, clubs, outdoor venues, concerts from small to big.

Infinite baffle, ported, sealed, horn loaded.

Check. Can't fool me

21" 18"s, 15"s 12"s 10"s multiples are better. What is your fascination with 18"s

Got that sub built yet ?

That post was in regards to distortion, not extension.

I just think it's a mistake to ignore extension in home theater. You guys think it's a mistake to ignore distortion in home theater. One of these is very important during explosions, dinosaur stomping, helicopter takeoffs, etc. My only question was who exactly has experienced both strategies, both several 18's as well as a 15" horn? Scrappy was the only one I was aware of and he was underwhelmed for HT. Derrick has heard both as well.

i don't know what your fascination for giving the guy such a hard time is? He had a simple question. Have you heard a big stack or wall of 18's in a home theater? That's all he has asked. And you keep coming back with concerts and venues and cars and 8" and 21" and what not. A simple yes or no and if yes what was the setup.

I'm sure he's asking BECAUSE he has heard multiple 18's in numerous theaters and wants to know what your comparing that "horns are King" to? I've heard them all. Except IB. And I think horns are awesome. I think they are too big for my room. At least all the awesome ones I heard. The tht-lp I heard wouldn't cut it at all for me.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Scrappydue

[jason str]

I answered your question, the answer is yes. Need details or what ?

 

Double opposing 18" IB in a ceiling, small room it worked well.

 

Few different pro sound models for stereo, no home theater stuff really.

 

Set of 2 Klipsch double 18, not sure of the model they were.

 

Why does it matter where it was at ? Most home theater rooms are rattle traps anyways.

 

Saw some killer setups before, in a room with a drop ceiling. Why have multiple 15s or 18s and have to listen to the room rattle apart. Just saying.

 

 Yeah RF-7s or whatever your flavor loudspeaker is are nice and throw a few 18s of your choice in for good measure are sweet but go to a good sound venue and have a good listen and ask yourself if its near comparing to.

 

My comparison was meant that i have heard better.

[derrickdj1]

Most likely dks is no closer to knowing what direction to go in to get a sub. He needs to chime in a redirect where is wants to go with this.

[dks5276]

Most likely dks is no closer to knowing what direction to go in to get a sub. He needs to chime in a redirect where is wants to go with this.

i bought a r-115sw for now, got a great deal and will rock that for now until i build one to compare

[Ceptorman]

 

I would love to see pics of your build Jason, I find this thread very informative. 

 

Kind of you to ask.

 

Cut up a bunch of panels this morning and glued on a couple this afternoon.

 

The build will be a downfiring version with legs, notice the 8 foot length of the end panels.

 

6 foot cabinet + the 18" legs is really tall but it takes up minimum floor space.

 

SAM_0168.JPGSAM_0169.JPG

 

Looks good, do you have a blueprint you're going by? Did you design it yourself? I love these build threads!

[jason str]

 

 

I would love to see pics of your build Jason, I find this thread very informative. 

 

Kind of you to ask.

 

Cut up a bunch of panels this morning and glued on a couple this afternoon.

 

The build will be a downfiring version with legs, notice the 8 foot length of the end panels.

 

6 foot cabinet + the 18" legs is really tall but it takes up minimum floor space.

 

SAM_0168.JPGSAM_0169.JPG

 

Looks good, do you have a blueprint you're going by? Did you design it yourself? I love these build threads!

 

 

Just a modified version of the THTLP.

 

The legs will be custom built designed by me, the horn section is stock.

 

Not sure what type of finish yet.

 

 

 

i installed a few more panels today and will post pictures in another thread if anybody wants to follow.

[Paducah Home Theater]

I have 2 rf83 front, rc64, 2 rf82 rear, 2rs42

im strictly movies no music

 

Im debating on purchasing 2 Bic acoustic pl200, 2 klipsch r-10sw, or 1 svs pb1000 or 1 klipsch r-115sw (had one to buy but it sold night before i was to pick up)

Ok, back to the OP. If you want a factory solution, I'd get two Klipsch R-115SW's. I can recommend them because I've used them personally and know what they're like. They will serve you well for movies. The only drawback is high volume rock music, there is some added coloration and possible resonances on some bass guitar notes and not enough overhead or tightness that I like for kick drums. For LFE on movies though, it is excellent, very nice bang for the buck and stupid simple to implement. Two of these had dishes rattling 60 feet away and 4 rooms over through insulated walls and solid core doors in my house. They're a beast around 20 hz.

Considering the rest of your setup and tastes, I'd do this in a heartbeat and not think twice. I would not dink with anything smaller or cheaper. As for alternatives, if you had more cash you might consider SVS or a couple other internet direct companies. Otherwise, DIY.

i bought a r-115sw for now, got a great deal and will rock that for now until i build one to compare

DOH, I missed this. Two really opens them up in a medium sized room. I felt that one made the room feel kind of lopsided. Two gives you a ticket to the all-encompassing bass everybody chases after.

Edited November 30, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters