Escher Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Hi folks, Looking for a new project - and am thinking about reworking my K-Horns a bit. Currently, they use the standard Tweeter over midrange setup. But I have noticed others modifying the placement to side by side with tweeter on the outside, I assume for wider imaging? Can anyone enlighten me on the reasons for the change? Also - I plan to make the top hats adjustable for angle so I can direct them down a bit as desired for sitting position.. I'll also be enclosing the backs to get more placement options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Paul Klipsch's arrangement is clearly superior from a psychoacoustics standpoint. The side by side arrangement is expediency only so as not to increase the top hat height when using larger/better performing tweeters or midrange horns/drivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 If you were trying to audibly improve the performance of Khorns, this is the way that I'd recommend: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escher Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 While super cool - and something I have thought about a bit....that is going the wrong way as I'm very limited by the size of my K-Horns. (not to mention I couldn't swing the cost..) I've got Decorators with custom shells that were built in the 60's... I'm planning to ditch the shells to save a couple of inches per side. The question about the tweeter and midrange setup is simply an academic one as I'm planning to rebuild the top-hats and need to decide on a layout. As you said - I'll likely stick with the current arrangement. That 402 Horn is so cool though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 If you've ever heard the stock K-77 all you ever hear is some very light squeaks and squawks highlighting other sounds, not producing an entire instrument (such as trumpet) itself. It doesn't stand alone in terms of audio reproduction. I put a 12" SEOS waveguide with a Denovo DNA-360 on top of my Khorns using the tweeter wires. I placed it overtop where the mid-horn mouth was for time alignment purposes. It was BY FAR superior sounding than the stock K-77 setup. There was much more full content coming out of the SEOS now. The frequency response of the DNA-360 is 950 Hz to 19,000 Hz, 1.75" voice coil. The SEOS/DNA-360 combo costs about $108 per side. The 10" SEOS/DNA-360 which I suspect might be an even better match comes in at $103. https://www.diysoundgroup.com/denovo-audio-dna-360-compression-driver.html https://www.diysoundgroup.com/speaker-parts/speaker-components/seos-waveguides.html +++ @Chris A I'd like to hear your comments or observations on the unorthodox SEOS setup I used. You made some observations about the SEOS waveguide on another thread and I haven't had a chance to get back to you to pick your brain on your thoughts in more detail but I'm interested in your analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 That's a much better performing tweeter/horn than the K-77, allowing you to drop the crossover frequency from ~4.9 kHz to slightly below 2 kHz, which is a much better crossover frequency for the K-400/K-55 driver. I can't find the polar spectrogram for that driver/horn combination, but I'd assume that it's good down to at least 2 kHz before any polar coverage issues appear. [I suppose you're aware that the Denovo DNA-360 1" is no longer available.] I have found that the K-77 tweeter is particularly harsh sounding relative to replacement tweeters (such as the Crites CT-125 and Beyma CP25). Replacing it will significantly improve the overall sound quality of the Khorns audibly. The Khorn's midrange horn--the K-400--loses vertical polar control below about 2200 Hz, so a larger horn (like a K-510) with 2" compression driver would be my choice in order to avoid that "pattern flip": the painting of the ceiling and floor with excess midrange energy. If you were to replace the K-400/K-55, I'd then put the tweeter on top at the back of the cabinet, as you have them--not to the side inside a stock top hat. If you were to use the K-510, you would need a DSP crossover to do a little boosting EQ of the Khorn's bass bin response in that band so that you could cross over at ~600 Hz. If you've got furnishings or shelves so close to the top hat of the Khorns so that you cannot make the top hat higher, I'd say that you already have an issue--and need to move any acoustically reflective object much further away (or remove it altogether) to regain timbre balance of the Khorns. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Here's a polar sonogram of the K-510 horn, first horizontally, then vertically: Any smaller dimensions of the mouth of a midrange horn than the K-510 will further compound the loss of vertical polar control at lower frequencies, raising the frequency at which polar control is lost. That means that the midrange horn needs to have a bigger mouth than the K-400...in fact much bigger vertically. A nearly square midrange horn would be even better. The K-402 with a good quality 2" driver is actually tailor made for replacing the K-400 and K-77 on top of a Khorn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 58 minutes ago, Chris A said: [I suppose you're aware that the Denovo DNA-360 1" is no longer available.] No, I didn't know that. I looked on the website and it looks like the DNA-325 has replaced the DNA-360 in all models. I've not heard the newer DNA-325. DIYSoundgroup (Erich H ) has recently overhauled his website and consolidated several overlapping models. There are newer options since I built my first SEOS 12 based speakers in 2014. The entire Fusion line has been eliminated, I presume in favor of the recently designed Home Theater Module HTM Series which use similar sized SEOS horns, drivers and enclosures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinmi Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 I've done all those mods to my K-Horns. Check out my build, and might want to check them out in person since I'm close to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornukopia Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 The matching horn is good looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAzZin Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 4 hours ago, kevinmi said: I've done all those mods to my K-Horns. Check out my build, and might want to check them out in person since I'm close to you These are a great looking speakers! Do you have a build log topic here? Can't find it, could you link it if you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
consistent Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Hi There is much better tweeters about than the 77 but try it in the vertical position. You will find it cleaner and of course more focused. I think it was originally built by Electrovoice to stand in the vertical cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinmi Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 On 11/6/2018 at 1:41 PM, RAzZin said: These are a great looking speakers! Do you have a build log topic here? Can't find it, could you link it if you do? Look up FINALLY DONE--210hz " KEVHORNS" in the Tech/mod section. I can't seem to get a link on here 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBPK402 Posted November 11, 2018 Share Posted November 11, 2018 Those speakers look AWESOME!Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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