Upper frequency response of Klipschorns???

[Triode Pete]

Set-up my turntable recently & last night borrowed my audio buddy's JBL test record which he picked up at an audio show in the 70's.

On one of the tracks it demonstrates frequency response. No problem detecting the low tones on the K-horns but the high frequency test tones are questionable. (BTW - my K-horns are rated ~ 35 to 17,500 Hz, Type AA original X-over, circa 1974 (M)). The test tones started at 20 kHz then to 19 kHz, 18, 17, 16, etc. down to 10 kHz.

I only could hear the 14,000 Hz test signal & lower(which is pretty high). I was hoping to hear up to 17,000 Hz (like my speakers are rated).

Do you think the X-overs need reworking? BTW - I'm not deaf.

My set-up is pretty good. Currently using a Kyocera PL-701 belt drive TT with a McIntosh MCC1000 MC cartridge fed into Loesch & Wiesner 417A phono stage pre-amp into a pair 300B SET's with potted Tango output iron.

Any thoughts on this potential loss of high frequency response over 14,000 Hz?

Thanks,

Pete

[Randy Bey]

I got some output at 16Khz, but nothing at all at 20k.

Of course, it was well down at 16.

[HDBRbuilder]

Few Humans can hear above 18k Hz...and most don't hear very well above 16k Hz once they are over 40 years old...and if they have been exposed to hearing-loss generating SPL levels, they will no longer have even that good of a high-frequency hearing...are you sure it isn't your HEARING, and not the k-horns?

[Triode Pete]

HDBR Builder;

I have my hearing tested every other year as part of an annual physical. My hearing is very good. Also, I had my audio buddy over who couldn't hear anything 15 kHz & above. But I could be going deaf?!?

Don't get me wrong. The K-horns sound fantastic. I've recently had comments that my system sounded better than anything offered at the recent Stereophile Show (May 2002) in NYC including Classic Audio Reproductions horns, Pipedreams, Watt Puppy Version XXVXVVX1, etc.

I was just curious if my original 1974 Type AA (oil filled caps) crossovers were showing degradation in the upper frequency extreme. Anyone else have comments? Al K?

Thanks,

Pete

[Deang]

HD pegs this one.

I went through a similiar experience a few months ago with a test CD.

When I hit the 15K tone, I couldn't hear it. Debbie, who was downstairs watching TV about jumped off the couch. She came upstairs wanting to know "what the heck are you doing?" She joined me for a time and we found out that she could hear the tones up to 17K -- and I couldn't hear squat past 15K.

I'm not deaf either, but I have spent 20 years working in computer rooms. I don't believe any high frequency loss has been related to listening sessions -- as I never listen louder than 95db.

An important note: Don't jack up that volume control in an attempt to turn up the test tones so you can "hear" them -- excessive energy on those high frequencies will burn out a tweeter right quick.

[Randy Bey]

I get my hearing tested every other year. To the best of my knowledge, the audiologists don't test above 8Khz.

I used a Rat Shack SPL meter and a Stereophile Test CD with frequency tones to make my measurements. I heard the 16K tone, but neither my ears or the Rat Shack heard the 20Khz tone.

[NOSValves]

Well I bet I have trouble hearing above 12 KHZ at the levels I listen to !! I bet I'm deaf Hence why I alway's use my 15 yr old daughter for the final yea or neh on the work I do to a amp. But my final impressions are usually the same as her ! I just would rather have a second opinion from someone that hasn't abused her ears for decades LOL !!

Craig

[prodj101]

lol, might wanna check you hearing. My friends dad can no longer hear 15,000 hz and above as well as he used to be able to. I can hear it clear as day, but he can't hear it at all.

[prodj101]

high frequency hearing drops very fast once you get older, it's the first range to go.

[NOSValves]

prodj101,

Are you saying I'm getting Old ??

[mike stehr]

Uh, my hearing rolls off about 14Khz, 15Khz, Craig.

And you got 5 years on me.

Trevor is right. The ol' Audio guy I know in town, his ears roll off at 10Khz!

He's 65.

But he knows his sh*t!

[Clipped and Shorn]

what?

[Colin]

At the 70-dB range, we hear ideally from about 400 Hz. to about 6 kHz., with special sensitivity to the area from 1 to 6 kHz. At 80-dB, we hear more bass, down to as low as 200 Hz. As loudness increases, we hear more bass frequencies, but remain most sensitive to the same 1 to 6 kHz. range

the average hearing loss Vs age for men and women at frequencies from 250 Hz to 8000 Hz. This means that for a man at age 35, sensitivity is down about 11 dB at 8000 Hz. For a woman at that age, sensitivity is down only about 5 dB. We can infer that sensitivity is down a whole lot more at 20kHz. The curves are lowest in the range from 1 to 5 kHz, with a dip at 4 kHz, indicating that the ear is most sensitive to frequencies in this range. At normal volumes, we don't hear much above 10kHz!

[Deang]

Armed with the above information, one should be able to build the ultimate set of speakers.

What a concept. Build them to the average ears, instead of the analyzers.

[Colin]

Yes, they are called Bose. I have toyed around with writing a review of Bose's jewel cubes because they are:

1) very popular

2) quite small

3) pretty cute

4) critically despised

5) controversial

The Bose cubes do not however, have good sound for an attractive price. They do have a lot of output in a narrow, but crucial auditory range, fooling all but tweaking audiophiles that they are reproducing most of the music with diminutive little cubes.

[Colin]

Well having said all that , I should still note a few things. First, while we may not hear measurably well below 400 Hz at the normal 70-db range, the extended frequency response of a loudspeaker does make a difference to the perception of note definition and tone. The low note on a bass guitar may be at 40Hz, that is only the first harmonic. Other harmonics extend in both directions. The additional harmonics of the note are both lower and higher than 40-Hz. In fact, a single 40-Hz note can spread across the audible frequency spectrum.

Take another example. The Piccolo is the highest frequency acoustic instrument in the orchestra. It plays up at the 5-kHz range. This is quite high. At normal listening volumes, this is at the edge of our measurable frequency range, for healthy young adults. The typical tweaking audiophile, who can now afford the quality sound system that his ears can no longer appreciate, does not hear much above that level. Yet, the extended high range of loudspeakers is noticeable, even at normal listening levels. Speakers that extend beyond 20-kHz are quite noticeable, even at normal listening levels. They typically sound sharper, sweeter, smoother and possibly brighter.

Dont believe me? Go listen to the Sonys at Best Buy. They all have an extended (>20-kHz) frequency response and they all sound better in the high end, to my ears, than comparable models, which do not reach so high.

The reason that an inaudibly high or low frequency response makes such a big difference to the sound of a loudspeaker is due to the harmonics of music. The note does not simply play in space and then disappear. It resounds and vibrates. A note has harmonics that keep repeating until all of the energy is gone from the initial pulse. Notes resonate in space until their join the universal background of noise. But in the meantime, their resonating harmonics form the texture and tone of the notes. We may not be able to hear down to 20-Hz directly, but measurements show that we can tell about notes as low as 5-Hz and possibly as high as 25-kHz. That is one reason why an active deep-bass woofer can make such a difference with music, even at normal listening levels. The 40-Hz low notes extend below 40-Hz. That is why the new DVD-A and SACD formats extend the frequency response above the 20-kHz barriers to human hearing.

Khorns do capture most of the range of acoustic music. (Very well, thank you.) But tweaking audiophiles report excellent results with active deep-bass woofers and super-tweeters, even when used with full-range speakers. The extended frequency response is said to improve, texture tone, emotional response and imaging.

[powdermnky007]

i have super hearing...

You guys have seen the little boxes used to run away insects and - or small animals? I can hear those and they KILL ME... Also when riding in cars, some air conditioners make high noises on my dads toyota. The worst things are when you push monitors to their extreme limits 1900 X 1400 with like 85hz refesh rate (19") the CRT's inside them SCREAM.. to the point where i can't stand to use the computer unless the resolution is lowered. Lol

[HDBRbuilder]

Pete,

I have my hearing tested about every year...and I have yet to see on the chart any frequency that they tested me at ABOVE 8,192 Hz...or BELOW 250 Hz!! Here are the normal audiometer frequency ranges for testing a human adult: 250-256 Hz; 500-512 Hz; 1,000-1,024 Hz; 2,000-2,048 Hz; 2,896-3,000 Hz; 4,000-4,098 Hz; 6,000-6,144 Hz; and 8,000-8,192 Hz. These are the standard testing tones...and if you notice...none of them go over 8.2k Hz!! So....a hearing test shows you nothing about your hearing loss above OR below these above frequencies! As a matter of fact...for the tones below around 100-200Hz, it is NOT your ears that "hear" them...but rather the fluid in your cochleae of your ears is vibrated by your flesh and bone structure...NOT by the tympanic membrane of your ear acting on the "hammer", "anvil", and "stirrup"!! That is why there is no need for stereo subwooofers...one will do just fine...because it is vibration travelling through your body that gives you those tones, NOT vibration picked up by your eardrums!!...and that vibration through your body's structure gets to both of your cochleae EQUALLY...giving the effect of stereo to your brain, whether it is really in stereo or not!!

To prove this point...try this sometime...put on a good pair of ISOLATING headphones...the ones that keep all other sounds around you out of the picture!! listen to them at your normal listening level...with the speakers NOT playing...just the headphones!! Then, turn on the speakers while you are listening to the headphones...you SHOULD notice MORE bass...but it isn't your EARS hearing that bass...it is your BODY transferring that bass to your middle ear...NOT your eardrum doing it!!! Pretty simple test to prove my point!!

PWK meant more than what many think he meant when he repeatedly said "The mid-range is 'where we live'"!!

Just because you can't hear above 15k Hz, doesn't mean you are going deaf...rather it means your hearing is more in the NORMAL RANGE for an adult Human Being over the age of 30...as a matter of fact...if you CAN hear tones in the 15k Hz range and are over 30, then you are in the UPPER RANGE of those with "normal hearing"!!!! One other point about hearing...we all also have "hearing gaps"...which means that not only does our own hearing drop off at the upper and lower range...but there are also specific points within our own personal upper and lower hearing range where we have gaps throughout that range...points where our hearing has peaks and troughs...one might say...just as in the frequency response of a speaker!!! NOBODY HAS A FLAT HEARING RESPONSE...just as NO SPEAKER HAS A FLAT FREQUENCY RESPONSE!!! Everybody is different in this respect...just one of the things that makes us unique as individuals!!

[Colin]

I too remember being sensitive to TV and microwave whines decades ago to the oppoint where I could tell if any TV was on in any house, no matter what size the house was, my college physics professor tested the entire class and I seem to remember that a few of us, including me, had sensitivity up near 17-kHz ( I was 17). Back then, as now, it was still the better low end of a speaker than impressed me.

[prodj101]

yeah, I hate that frickin tv sound. Especially when you go into best buy or a store iwth like 30 tv's in one area, and it drives me crazey!