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DizRotus

DSP to integrate subs?

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I was able to find some info regarding the Pono's output. The following is excerpted from an article in Stereophile.

 

"Perhaps the best way to characterize the Pono player," I concluded in May, "is to say that for $399, you get a D/A processor almost as good as Ayre Acoustics' QB-9 ($3250), with a 128GB hi-rez media player thrown in for free."
 
The benefit of balanced operation is twofold. First, because the PonoPlayer must operate from a 3.7V lithium-ion battery, the maximum unbalanced output voltage is restricted to 1V. (With a 1kHz tone at 0dBFS and the Pono's volume control set to its maximum, I measured slightly less than this from the headphone jack: 961.3mV.) Although in balanced mode each of the signal-phase outputs is limited to the same 1V, because they're in opposite polarity to each other—as the cold phase swings negative, the hot phase swings positive—the maximum output voltage is doubled; ie, increased by 6dB. This will, in theory, lower the noise floor by 3dB for the same playback level as in conventional mode. Second, any noise that is common to both signal phases, as well as even-order harmonic distortion, will be canceled with balanced operation.
 
 
 

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Does the above voltage output info bode well for using a MiniDsp, or not?

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I am surprised by the output level but looks like you're good to go. What headphones only need 2 volts? Just earbuds or what?

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22 minutes ago, babadono said:

I am surprised by the output level but looks like you're good to go. What headphones only need 2 volts? Just earbuds or what?

 

My Sennheiser  HD 280 PRO headphones play well with the Pono in single ended mode, and even better in balanced mode.

 

Pono in balanced is sweet sounding.

 

 

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This is all becoming very confusing.  As I understand it, Chris @Chris A recommends miniDSP HD over non-HD.  The 2 x 4 HD is not balanced but could be balanced adding Regurgitators.  The 4 x 10 HD can be balanced without Regurgitators.  Apparently, the 4 x 10 HD would allow setting crossover points to the  tweeters, squawkers, and woofers in the Super Heresys, as well as the cross to the subs.  Delay could be set as to each driver also.  Am I understanding this correctly?

 

The 2 x 4 Balanced Kit is not recommended because of the limitations of the non-HD configuration.  Correct Chris?

 

For reasons previously stated, I’m committed to balanced.  Based upon my understanding as expressed above, it seems my choices are:

 

1. Skip the whole thing and live with subwoofers delayed;

2. Get miniDSP Balanced Kit (not HD) to delay Supers to align with subs;

3. Get miniDSP 2 x 4 HD plus Regurgitators to get balanced;

4. Get miniDSP 4 x 10 HD to provide max flexibility balanced; or

5. Get Xilica at unknown cost and unknown as to balanced.

 

Is any current lag in subwoofer output real, and, if so, is it worth the effort and expense to address it?

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14 minutes ago, DizRotus said:

Am I understanding this correctly?

Yes.

14 minutes ago, DizRotus said:

The 2 x 4 Balanced Kit is not recommended because of the limitations of the non-HD configuration.  Correct Chris?

Yes.

14 minutes ago, DizRotus said:

5. Get Xilica at unknown cost and unknown as to balanced.

The Xilicas all have balanced connections.

 

If you decide to go the tri-amp route with a 4x10 HD or Xilica XP4080, you will have total control over the drivers and delays, and balanced connections throughout, with subwoofers included. 

 

If you decide to bi-amp or tri-amp using either of the two crossovers in "1)", then you will need to measure what you've got to dial everything in.  Once you do this, you'll never go back ("it's a slippery slope to the dark side", my friend...).  You do have more than one resource here to help you through this process to achieve outstanding results, but getting a USB microphone will open the doors to sonic nirvana.  The DSP crossovers and USB microphone are usable with any loudspeaker system that you choose, so remember that you're not buying something that's going to be obsolete once you change something in the setup.  It gives the control, measurement and adjustablility to do anything from the moment you figure out how to take measurements.

 

Chris

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13 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Yes.

Yes.

The Xilicas all have balanced connections.

 

If you decide to go the tri-amp route with a 4x10 HD or Xilica XP4080, you will have total control over the drivers and delays, and balanced connections throughout, with subwoofers included. 

 

If you decide to bi-amp or tri-amp using either of the two crossovers in "1)", then you will need to measure what you've got to dial everything in.  Once you do this, you'll never go back ("it's a slippery slope to the dark side", my friend...).  You do have more than one resource here to help you through this process to achieve outstanding results, but getting a USB microphone will open the doors to sonic nirvana.  The DSP crossovers and USB microphone are usable with any loudspeaker system that you choose, so remember that you're not buying something that's going to be obsolete once you change something in the setup.  It gives the control, measurement and adjustablility to do anything from the moment you figure out how to take measurements.

 

Chris

 

Thanks Chris.  That helps.  

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ChrisA is correct(as per usual) for all. Sorry after i went home last night i was off line. Electricity went out yesterday at home, phones were down until this morning, no wifi. Freak storm with lightning  wreaked havoc in the area and started a large brush fire a couple miles from my home. Please pray for us and the firefighters.🙏

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Hey Neil,

 

I have  a couple of 2 in 6 out Yamaha units you can play with, yes they are balanced and work just as well as Xilica with delays, PEQ's, etc.. I have owned both, but gave up my Xilica to the guy who got my Jubes. But, even used, they are about 50% more $$ than the Mini DSP 4x10 unit, which I've never owned. The Yamahas are solid PRO units, built like tanks, though, and I can't tell the difference, sonically, between Yamaha and Xilica, to be honest.

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I've also got a Yamaha SP2060 that I used for the Jubs before I got the Xilica.  It works fine, although I use the front panel to program it. This makes it a little less convenient than the Xilica--which uses a PC to run XConsole (freeware provided by Xilica that runs on a PC or Mac), and in my case outputs to a USB interface with the Xilica crossover.

 

The advantage of the Yamaha is that it will take AES3 inputs (digital) directly from a source that outputs AES3 (a.k.a., AES/EBU), thus bypassing the need for an digital-->analog -->digital conversion in the signal chain.  I don't currently have a preamp or PCI Express card that outputs AES3, but if I did, I'd try out the Yamaha in that mode.  I'm hanging on the Yamaha explicitly for that reason.  The Xilica "XD" series also has this feature (AES3 inputs) and like the Yamaha bought new, adds about $800-$1K (USD) to the price.

 

BTW: the miniDSP 4x10 HD also says that it takes AES3 [AES/EBU] inputs.  It has a much lower price point (~$540 USD).

 

Chris

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FWIW The Yamaha has software too that is free but man is it elaborate. It is made to control say a system for the Dallas Cowboys Stadium of which this crossover would be a tiny fraction of.

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I have the miniDSP OpenDRC 2x8 which I use to crossover and EQ my K510/2x12 combos. This is a step up from the 2x4HD that I had purchased a few years ago to experiment with 3 way designs. The miniDSPs are great little kit, but the noise floor can be high for horn loaded tweeters. I had to put an attenuator between the miniDSP and K510s to drop the hiss to an acceptable level. Of course those horns are so insanely efficient I didn't really lose any SPL.

 

If I were in your shoes I'd give the the 2x4 balanced a try as it's only $100. You could probably easily get $50 for it on ebay if it doesn't work out for you. Otherwise I'm not sure I'd spend $500 on a 4x10HD. I'd probably keep my eyes open for a 3x6 Xilica or Yamaha used instead. Once your at $500 the price/performance doesn't seem as attractive given the higher noise floor.

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8 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Hey Neil,

 

I have  a couple of 2 in 6 out Yamaha units you can play with, yes they are balanced and work just as well as Xilica with delays, PEQ's, etc.. I have owned both, but gave up my Xilica to the guy who got my Jubes. But, even used, they are about 50% more $$ than the Mini DSP 4x10 unit, which I've never owned. The Yamahas are solid PRO units, built like tanks, though, and I can't tell the difference, sonically, between Yamaha and Xilica, to be honest.

 

We’ll talk.

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Okay, I acted on impulse and ordered a miniDSP 2 x 4 Balanced Kit to give it a try.  As MenloBob said above, I can always sell it, or pay it forward to a forum member.  I figure I should at least be able to get an idea whether there is a real delay problem with the subs.  It may be I’m trying to solve an issue that isn’t really an issue.  If it results in an improvement, I can consider a better unit. 

 

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And it might result in an improvement where a better unit doesn't even need consideration.

 

Is it just me, or would an "impulse" decision have been taken in somewhat less time than was this 1?

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2 hours ago, glens said:

And it might result in an improvement where a better unit doesn't even need consideration.

 

Is it just me, or would an "impulse" decision have been taken in somewhat less time than was this 1?

 

It's just you.

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Part of the rationalization for the purchase was the balance in my PayPal account after selling the electronics that came with the La Scalas @Escher purchased.  Somehow that money seems like audio hobby money, rather than real money.

 

After listening to Clapton Unplugged this evening, I’m not sure how much room for improvement there is.  As MenloBob said, it’s only $100. and PayPal “play money” at that.

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I ordered this miniDSP 2 x 4 Balanced Kit on 9/5/19; it arrived today.  Five days from China to Michigan.  I've had birthday cards from across town take longer.

 

 

Given the warnings about this unit, I don't expect it to become a permanent addition to my system.   I do expect it to let me evaluate the gross concept of delaying everything else to let the subs catch up.  If there's an improvement, I expect to get a more elegant, i.e., quiet form of balanced DSP.

 

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16 minutes ago, DizRotus said:

I've had birthday cards from across town take longer.

:)

This device may work perfectly for you. Have fun.

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