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Chris A

Double Stack ESS AMT-1 with Wings--Possible Kit for Heritage

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I'm not using wings presently.

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45 minutes ago, Pete H said:

Is there a conflict between these two statements, or is it based on the lower crossover point that Chris is using?  

 

Hmmm. I too would like clarification on what Chris meant.  I had not noticed his statement as contradictory to mine.  Chris is way more knowledgeable than I am, so his experience should carry way more weight.  I'm just going by my little experiments and what I have experienced first hand. Also, note that I have not focused on getting response down to 300hz....although that would be great.  Since this has been a long process, I was happy to proceed with a crossing point of 800hz. 

 

As I get more used to the AMT sound, I will then play around with setting it back relative to the surface it sits on. I have noticed that it sounds more open and airy when up front.

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One week since ordering and still not been shipped :(


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2 hours ago, Chris A said:

That wire color thing that you stated above is correct from my measurements.  I just dialed in a pair of single AMT-1s on top of the Khorn clones yesterday, after removing the top hats and salvaging the top of the top hats themselves for covering the bass bins and setting the AMT-1 on top (centered).  I had to unscramble the phase on the bass bins and AMT-1s so that they are in phase at the crossover frequency band (to the measured AMT-1 channel delay using excess group delay), and in-phase left to right stereo channels.  The purple wire is positive from my measurements. 

 

[Also note that the AMT-1 diaphragms take a fair amount of time to break-in.  When I first got this pair of AMT-1s last year, it took about a week of playing them in the surround speakers before they finally loosened up.]

 

Don't try to place anything soft on top of the top plate if you do this, because I found that the decrease in midrange SPL from using one absorption pad on top between the AMT-1 and the top of the bass bin was severe.  The AMT-1 needs the entire top surface of the top hat, along with 8-10 inches of setback from the front of the bass bin top to develop the correct SPL response in the midrange (300-900 Hz). 

 

The final results are still in progress, but I can say one thing:  the sound quality while sitting in the listening chair is much more listenable and smooth, and the soundstage is spectacular due to resolving the driver/horn sound quality improvements.  There is also a definite lightness and increased apparent ambience that wasn't there before.  This is in a room that is 13.5' x 11.5' x 8' (wide dimension front wall).  The Khorn clones with stock top hats just didn't sound smooth and relaxed even though they were tri-amped and time-aligned.  The natural crossover point to the Khorn clone bass bins is 560 Hz--with no crossover filters required--it crosses naturally at almost 24 dB/octave (single-high AMT-1 stack). 

 

The La Scala and Belle bass bins both will respond to over 1 kHz on-axis, so some form of crossover filter or wide-attenuating PEQ(s) will be required when using them. 

 

Chris

 

Chris,

I have been off the forum the last day or so and missed this post. 

Yes, I too found the purple wire to be positive, with one exception where the wire was actually soldered to the wrong point in the diaphragm.

 

Back to the setback you used in your setup with the Khorn bass bin.  Did you experiment with the driver up front, near the edge of the bin?  I too would like to get a good crossover point as low as possible and have yet to take time to measure various setback positions. 

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1 hour ago, dkalsi said:

One week since ordering and still not been shipped :(


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I ordered mine on a Friday evening and they arrived 10 days later without any information beyond the initial "we got your order" email.

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1 hour ago, dkalsi said:

One week since ordering and still not been shipped :(


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I called after a week and they still weren't shipped and have never received any shipping update either, so it seems to be how they operate.  You are not alone. 

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On 1/12/2020 at 10:52 PM, Delicious2 said:

3 wings right.

3 Wings right.jpg

Any measurements?

 

I've taken measurements of the single AMT-1 w/o wings on top of my Khorn clone bass bins.  Here is the SPL response after I flattened the SPL of each driver and set relative channel gains:

 

141987516_ShinallBassbinandAMT-1(flattenedEQ)SPLresponse.thumb.jpg.6b50a5e1f4f0731a6f8306700cd9a523.jpg

 

I'll have to redo the measurements with a lot of added absorption around the loudspeaker and microphone in order to get good phase response...but here's a spectrogram that should suffice in the mean time:

 

115918655_LeftShinallAMT-1(two-way)Spectrogram.thumb.jpg.48c8e12bebd5b529406fb8c7e611d2e6.jpg

 

I don't believe that the stacked/winged AMT-1s will ever be able to cross as low as 280 Hz, but the phase issues that I was seeing with the three-way (Khorn clone top hat) have disappeared, so I'm okay with accepting the performance as-is for now. 

 

I have four new AMT-1s being shipped here for use with either the Belle bass bins (single AMT-1s are being used currently on the surrounds in my main rig) or with the Shinall bass bins in the computer room.  I don't which place we'll enjoy them more but I expect an audible increase in vertical coverage angle and the ability to cross them a bit lower or the stacked/winged versions than the single wingless AMT-1s...and also play them with full dynamic range without rise of harmonic distortion, etc. 

 

Chris

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19 minutes ago, Pete H said:

I called after a week and they still weren't shipped and have never received any shipping update either, so it seems to be how they operate

 

This thread has killed off their inventory. The elves are trying to ramp up productions. They are scratching their heads as to why the sudden increase in 4 X order over 2 X.

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24 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Any measurements?

 

Chris

I'll make incremental progress evenings this week and see if I can get some measurements to you this weekend Chris since I'm still pretty remedial when it comes to interpreting/presenting them.  Current plan is to tie the current triple hinged wings together with top, bottom and side plate assembly with threaded rod similar to Rudy's but with a hinged single back wing set in addition sitting on one of my Khorn bass bins.

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This thread has killed off their inventory. The elves are trying to ramp up productions. They are scratching their heads as to why the sudden increase in 4 X order over 2 X.



Ha - I’m not sure if this was meant to be a joke, but I just spoke to them and they said they were behind because “there were a shit-load of orders from Klipsch users” - way more than their normal operations :)

Chris and Rudy belong on their payroll. The two of them made ESS quite a bit of money in short order.


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giphy.gif

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I suspect ESS is not a huge company and they likely operate on a small scale.  Frankly, I'm glad they took over the AMT business.  Our support can only help to provide funds they can use to improve the product or do some real R&D.  If its any consolation, my third order took a long time, but it got here.  I know we are all impatient, but for now patience may pay off in the long run.

 

 

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As soon as I have some time I will run a series of sweeps at varying distances from the front edge.  I want to run just the AMTs so I don't have to set the timing every time I move them.  I will provide some pictures and precise distances for each plot. Unless you guys think I should do it differently, I will keep the mic in one position instead of following the AMT stack back.  Does that seem like the proper way to do it?

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Yes, that's fine. 

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8 minutes ago, Rudy81 said:

I know we are all impatient, but for now patience may pay off in the long run.

robert eggers patience GIF

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22 minutes ago, Rudy81 said:

As soon as I have some time I will run a series of sweeps at varying distances from the front edge.  I want to run just the AMTs so I don't have to set the timing every time I move them.  I will provide some pictures and precise distances for each plot. Unless you guys think I should do it differently, I will keep the mic in one position instead of following the AMT stack back.  Does that seem like the proper way to do it?

I will do the same.  Maybe we can standardize between our test setups somewhat.  I plan to have the AMT test stack on  the triangular Khorn bass bin cover pictured above sitting on the Khorn bass bin - no top hat - in the corner with several layers of thick fuzzy padding at the foot of the bass bin.  What REW settings should we use on the AMT only?  A test sweep from 300-20k?  Bare walls in the corner and on the walls to either side of the test setup or some kind of absorption/padding?  Test level?  I'm using the UMIK-1 mic with 90 degree calibration file.  What distance and height of mic?  

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3 hours ago, dkalsi said:

they said they were behind because “there were a shit-load of orders from Klipsch users” - way more than their normal operations

 

That's awesome. Glad to have been a part of that cash influx. :)

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Posted SPL graphs....deleted due to measurement error on my part....My apologies everyone. I came back to run sweeps with wider wings and realized I likely did NOT take the measurements properly.  I will post the 'real' results in a bit a few posts down.....sorry guys.

 

 

 

 

 

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How deep is your bass bin cabinet?

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I pick red not knowing much else. EQ it down 500-800.

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