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Heresy IV versus Heresy III


buckaroo

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And with the SVS sub added. Imagine a $180 (factory B stock, and home made speaker stands) pair of bookshelf speakers with the sub, reproducing down to 22hz with authority. Total speaker + sub cost.....$580. Sealed cab speakers (port plugged) and sealed cab sub I might add.

 

Need some EQ to fix that pesky 50 hz peak :)  These Elacs sound really good by themselves, this is my second pair purchased. First pair @ my desktop pc.

 

I apologize my graphs are not as pretty and well detailed as some here. This was my first couple days with the REW software and clearly i need to learn more about capturing graph data/display better. Simple but accurate. 

 

 

Elac right channel only with subwoofer.jpg

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53 minutes ago, polizzio said:

And with the SVS sub added. Imagine a $180 (factory B stock, and home made speaker stands) pair of bookshelf speakers with the sub, reproducing down to 22hz with authority. Total speaker + sub cost.....$580. Sealed cab speakers (port plugged) and sealed cab sub I might add.

 

Need some EQ to fix that pesky 50 hz peak :)  These Elacs sound really good by themselves, this is my second pair purchased. First pair @ my desktop pc.

 

I apologize my graphs are not as pretty and well detailed as some here. This was my first couple days with the REW software and clearly i need to learn more about capturing graph data/display better. Simple but accurate. 

 

 

Elac right channel only with subwoofer.jpg

You loose the loading of the port so it is very much woofer / box coordination.  Nothing can be generically specified.  You typically will loose the port tuning addition and only get woofer output at those frequencies.

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2 hours ago, polizzio said:

double post, my bad.

Well then, lets insert the graphs. Bottom graph is BR port plugged, same speaker:

 

first ELAC bass response.jpg

elac alone but no BR.jpg

 

An excellent example of the benefits of stuffing a port.  In the Dark Ages I had a pair of Matantz Imperial 7s.  The owners's manual suggested stuffing the ports to reduce lower bass output for room issues or taste.  The effect was similar but reduced output more than your graphs show.  Supposedly, it increased bass output  elow 40 Hz, but the output was so low down there it he improvement was irrelevant. 

 

Polizzio, I think your curves are showing some room effects.  The 100 Hz and perhaps the 200 Hz dips and that implies the 50 Hz bump may all be related to a room dimension.  1130 ft/sec/100 cycles/sec = 11.3 ft.  (50 Hz = 22.6 ft).  What do you have that is 11.3 feet away?  Back wall, diagonal to back wall and ceiling, room width or depth, first reflection off floor or ceiling? 

 

H IVs have a flared inlet and flared outlet with a straight section between. 

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1 hour ago, JohnA said:

 

Polizzio, I think your curves are showing some room effects.  The 100 Hz and perhaps the 200 Hz dips and that implies the 50 Hz bump may all be related to a room dimension.  1130 ft/sec/100 cycles/sec = 11.3 ft.  (50 Hz = 22.6 ft).  What do you have that is 11.3 feet away?  Back wall, diagonal to back wall and ceiling, room width or depth, first reflection off floor or ceiling? 

 

 

No doubt John, there is a wall 10 foot away from the speaker motorboard (I just measured) and a really large bean bag chair occupying the room. Its a spare BR so its easy to close the door and reap the acoustic benefits. I took those  measurements above @ ~ 1.5 meters, and the test signals @ 75 db (black line in charts above). I was trying to minimize room/furnishings reflections, but I'm sure they still are there, play a part in the results. 

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21 hours ago, Randyh said:

perfect answer -

I completely disagree, because you can easily adjust the volume down to that of the 3. Compare the 2 volumes-subtract, and add the appropriate amount to adjust.

If the woofer is the same III and IV-all that's important is what volume it sees. No mystery. Q etc would be identical. Unless the woofer model is different between the III and IV-then no.

The only reason would be if your having rear port issues, but if you want to experiment, and perhaps prefer the sealed bass of the iii,  I see little issue, IMHO of course. Power handling wasn't a issue I was trying to address., but I get it....

But hey, to each his own...…...this isn't a knock on the engineer who redesigned this-audio is all about making things work in your listening environment. Otherwise, what's the point??? Equipment is merely a means to a end.....musical enjoyment. Nothing too complicated.

FIY, nephew had a internship @ Electrovoice in Burnsville.

I was able to run a full frequency test on my modded AMT3's there, I'll post it here when I get the chance.

Stock AMT3's vs my modded version.

Pretty cool stuff!!

You would be surprised how many of those guys tweak.

I have been moding, building speakers for years.

But of course, you have to have a understanding of how speakers work, and also some practical experience.

Dicakson and Weams are excellent reading.

By I also understand, some just stick with stock.

Others afraid it effects value, etc, or both.

I get it-for myself audio is a hobby-not a good investment. Life's too short to 'worship' equipment....enjoy the music!

I personally don't see a issue with either.

I imagine the stock IV's will be just fine for most.

But theres no harm in exploring tweeks...

I have found many times fine tuning internal damping can solve a whole host of bass/room issues, without changing your listening room around.

Weems book has a article on how to construct a simple damping tester I have found invaluable over the years...works well with ported and sealed.

FIY, I realize I haven't posted here much-however if your bored/etc done lots of work @ AK for years. Not trying to ruffle anyone, just pointing to the obvious...

Occasionally I have floated over for Klipsch info.

Appreciate the patience.

 

Edited by Automojo
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Same woofer, basically same size box.

Three main reasons to stuff it

- matching better if using a sub, particularly if not using a crossover

- impact of room and loading problems with the bass

- keeping the woofer from unloading at lower frequencies than the port allows with high power

If none apply, leave the port open and enjoy the extra low end output and extension.

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11 hours ago, pzannucci said:

Same woofer, basically same size box.

Three main reasons to stuff it

- matching better if using a sub, particularly if not using a crossover

- impact of room and loading problems with the bass

- keeping the woofer from unloading at lower frequencies than the port allows with high power

If none apply, leave the port open and enjoy the extra low end output and extension.

Sure, yep.

Audio is all about educating yourself, and finding out what sounds best!!

Thanks!!

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Why buy a rear ported speaker if you intend to stuff that port? I am unable to follow the “purchase logic” of such a transaction...just for the record. 
 

If I purchased H IV’s, it would be because I preferred the rear port. I would bet that is the logic most buyers would employ.

 

Respectfully to all, the technical argument about what happens when the port is stuffed seems academic, and not the point of the thread. The point of the thread is to read user reviews, hopefully done comparing both models.

 

Buck

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15 hours ago, buckaroo said:

Why buy a rear ported speaker if you intend to stuff that port? I am unable to follow the “purchase logic” of such a transaction...just for the record. 
 

If I purchased H IV’s, it would be because I preferred the rear port. I would bet that is the logic most buyers would employ.

 

Respectfully to all, the technical argument about what happens when the port is stuffed seems academic, and not the point of the thread. The point of the thread is to read user reviews, hopefully done comparing both models.

 

Buck

The ports are not the only upgrade.  Also stuffing the port provide flexibility so it makes sense as a discussion point with perspective buyers, like as in the review as in the PSB T3 with a google search.

Now with that I would like to hear how folks like or dislike the mid-range horn with the poly vs the Ti driver with the new crossover.  I think that should provide a very interesting perspective and discussion.

 

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On 1/24/2020 at 11:01 AM, Zim. said:

  Those of us who attended Chief Boneheads class last Oct. listened to a very well done listening comparison between the Heresy III and Heresy IV.  The comparison was in the listening room of the lab and was about as controlled as one would ever hope to expect.  You will be hard pressed to find an attendee who would say the IV is not a significant improvement over the III.  

  I'll be the first to admit I'm not blessed with the Golden Ears many claim to possess,  however,  I do trust my ears implicitly.   The most significant improvement to me was in the bass response.  Simply put,  the IV sounds like a MUCH larger speaker than the III.  

  I would suggest you wait on your purchase until you've listened to the IV...and save your penny's in the meantime.  The IV's are a little more $.

 

I was there too and the H4 was a dramatic improvement over the 3.  The other thing to think about was that Roy had these maybe 10'  off the back wall. If they had been close to a corner the bass would have been even better.

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28 minutes ago, pzannucci said:

Now with that I would like to hear how folks like or dislike the mid-range horn with the poly vs the Ti driver with the new crossover.  I think that should provide a very interesting perspective and discussion.

The h4's were very musical. I am not a fan of smaller Ti diaphragms but in this case what I heard was very good.

 

  Port stuffing and all that rigamarole are not needed with these and the H4 is the aggregate of ALL the things Roy has done and it just sounds good. If it were me and I went to hear a set of these and did not like them I would not consider tinkering with them. At that point in time I would have to say the smaller speaker was not capable of the sound I wanted and move on to something bigger. Bigger is better but the H4 certainly stretches that small box for all it's worth.

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1 minute ago, Dave A said:

The h4's were very musical. I am NOT a fan of smaller Ti diaphragms. They all have sounded shrill to me vs the various plastic like ones.

 

  Port stuffing and all that rigamarole are not needed with these and the H4 is the aggregate of ALL the things Roy has done and it just sounds good. If it were me and I went to hear a set of these and did not like them I would not consider tinkering with them. At that point in time I would have to say the smaller speaker was not capable of the sound I wanted and move on to something bigger. Bigger is better but the H4 certainly stretches that small box for all it's worth.

Good to hear about the midrange.  I have have the same sentiment on Ti mids.  Anybody who would buy a speaker they don't like the sound of just to change it (for $3k) has more money than brains unless they know something we don't.  The port tinkering is something good to think about if you aren't able to try the speaker in it's final placement before buying.

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2 minutes ago, pzannucci said:

Good to hear about the midrange.  I have have the same sentiment on Ti mids.  Anybody who would buy a speaker they don't like the sound of just to change it (for $3k) has more money than brains unless they know something we don't.  The port tinkering is something good to think about if you aren't able to try the speaker in it's final placement before buying.

I re-wrote that line on the Ti diaphragm as it did not quite say what I intended to.

 

7 minutes ago, Dave A said:

The h4's were very musical. I am not a fan of smaller Ti diaphragms but in this case what I heard was very good.

Roy did something to make these work right.

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2 minutes ago, Dave A said:

I re-wrote that line on the Ti diaphragm as it did not quite say what I intended to.

 

Roy did something to make these work right.

H4s went with the poly in the mids.  I can understand Ti better on the tweeters though Ti on tweeters also sound a little shrill sometimes. 

Were you referring to a better sound on the Ti Tweeter between the III and the IV?

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1 hour ago, Dave A said:

I was there too and the H4 was a dramatic improvement over the 3.  The other thing to think about was that Roy had these maybe 10'  off the back wall. If they had been close to a corner the bass would have been even better.

They were 10 feet or 10 inches from the back wall...seeking clarity just to be sure I understand.

Buck

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10 minutes ago, buckaroo said:

They were 10 feet or 10 inches from the back wall...seeking clarity just to be sure I understand.

Buck

feet. Now I did not measure it but that is my memory. All four speaker types were lined up in the center of the room and a good distance out from the wall behind them.

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