danalog02 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 1 minute ago, Chris A said: Touchy, too. The point that I made was that, if you're getting your music education from listening to popular music on the top 40s radio (through the 1990s), streamed, etc., that isn't very "broadening" from a musicians perspective. I've in fact been pretty underwhelmed by what I see and hear out of these guys that come and go here. I would expect nothing less than this from someone in your shoes, I suppose. My condolences. Chris What I'M saying is that it's fun to armchair quarterback an entire group of people with subjective arguments as to what's good and bad in your opinion. Seeing as you know little about me and even less about my musical tastes, you are somewhat less than qualified to psychologically evaluate me. I'm not an expert, I just have more experience with the entire process of making records and the music business in general than the average audiophile. YMMV, take everything I say with a grain of salt. Nothing in recording is absolute, but certain things tend to hold true over time. One of them is that almost every album is a compromise (excepting maybe Two Against Nature, The Dark Side of the Moon and Random Access Memories). Somewhere along the line, a corner gets cut. Could be budgetary, could be a release deadline, could be any number of things. Records are hardly ever "finished", they just reach a quitting point. It was very disillusioning for me to figure out. Expect what you want from me or, better yet, expect nothing. You'll never be disappointed. I'll enjoy my classical/jazz/blues/rock/EDM/bluegrass or whatever moves me that day on my wonderful Klipsch speakers and also enjoy NOT being part of the soul-crushing ringer that is the music business 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 16 minutes ago, danalog02 said: ... on my wonderful Klipsch speakers ... What Klipsch speakers do you have? If several, what do you like best, and why? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 Perhaps extending an olive branch a bit (and apologies to the OP): In my own prior profession (the one before the one I've got now helping folks here with audio stuff), I found that there were issues that fundamentally conflicted with my profession doing a truly spectacular and critical job--issues that were justified in the name of "business"--including huge amounts of dark tetrad stuff. No one dared mention that the profession was doomed because of these factors (especially in customers' organizations), but the truth is that is exactly what occurred, such that the capabilities of practicing engineers were deliberately dumbed down over time by those calling the shots (albeit without traceability to who was doing it). It's a shame, because the losers are really the public. It's the same in the recording industry apparently. I really do extend my condolences for real--because I've experienced that sort of thing, too. Perhaps some old war stories can be told sometime... Chris 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danalog02 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 I have a wonderful set of 1982 Heresys purchased a while back from Marion. My first pair and I love them. Marion was then super generous and gave me a pair of Speakerlab K-horns (his first) that he built with his dad. They need work and I'm in the planning stages to refurb them now. I've heard Cornwalls and La Scala's and they're both great, but I can certainly see where someone got the idea for the Cornscala. I supplement my Heresys with a 12" Dayton Audio sub crossed over around 60hz or so. Thanks for asking. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danalog02 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 5 minutes ago, Chris A said: Perhaps extending an olive branch a bit (and apologies to the OP): In my own prior profession (the one before the one I've got now helping folks here with audio stuff), I found that there were issues that fundamentally conflicted with my profession doing a truly spectacular and critical job--issues that were justified in the name of "business"--including huge amounts of dark tetrad stuff. No one dared mention that the profession was doomed because of these factors (especially in customers' organizations), but the truth is that is exactly what occurred, such that the capabilities of practicing engineers were deliberately dumbed down over time by those calling the shots (albeit without traceability to who was doing it). It's a shame, because the losers are really the public. It's the same in the recording industry apparently. I really do extend my condolences for real--because I've experienced that sort of thing, too. Perhaps some old war stories can be told at the SWAG... Chris I'm happy to chat about it and olive branch accepted. I've chased the audio rabbit way far down the hole and had some great experiences. I got to meet Mark Knopfler and hang out with him and Chuck Ainlay while he was mixing "Sailing to Philadelphia", one of my favorite records. I got to listen to a 1/2" safety backup tape of Led Zeppelin IV with Chris Huston (one of the engineers) through an SSL G-series QUAD mixing console while picking his brain about drum sounds. I've also recorded and mixed some of the shittiest songs, custom records, and demos so we could keep the lights on waiting for the good project to come in. I have found that the amount of talent an artist has is inversely proportional to the amount of money be can raise to make a record. I'd you'd like to hear an example of a record I co-engineered (with the producer) you can stream "American Vistas" by Marc Kunkel. We worked hard on that one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danalog02 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 1 minute ago, jimjimbo said: Do you mean other than the fact that you are showing that very quality yourself… Really? You want to keep this particular line of conversation going just when Chris and I are patching things up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danalog02 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 I wonder how many unnecessary arguments could be avoided if the forum simply refreshed faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 36 minutes ago, Chris A said: --issues that were justified in the name of "business"--including huge amounts of dark tetrad stuff. I've seen that tetrad in full operation in business, music, the university I worked for, politics, "everywhere." If only we could use something other than dollars and power as our reinforcing tokens ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 34 minutes ago, danalog02 said: Really? You want to keep this particular line of conversation going just when Chris and I are patching things up? I respect Chris. We’ll leave it at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danalog02 Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 13 minutes ago, jimjimbo said: I respect Chris. We’ll leave it at that. I'll take it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechEngVic Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 1 hour ago, danalog02 said: ...certain things tend to hold true over time. One of them is that almost every album is a compromise (excepting maybe Two Against Nature, The Dark Side of the Moon and Random Access Memories). Somewhere along the line, a corner gets cut. Could be budgetary, could be a release deadline, could be any number of things. Records are hardly ever "finished", they just reach a quitting point. It was very disillusioning for me to figure out. True. It's actually a lot like speaker making, or most of anything that is produced by humans. Even today, the two biggest limiting factors are technology and the human influence (costs, timing, and certainly ego). I've worked in a studio, never behind the board, but I was pretty good at setting up spaces and mic placement (my brother-in-law owned a studio for many years). Most of the music that came out of there never got mastered, and even though the bass is a bit boomy, or there are some uneven levels, I like listening to it because it isn't smashed together. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 1 hour ago, danalog02 said: I have found that the amount of talent an artist has is inversely proportional to the amount of money be can raise to make a record. That is funny. I don't doubt it for a second. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danalog02 Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 30 minutes ago, MechEngVic said: True. It's actually a lot like speaker making, or most of anything that is produced by humans. Even today, the two biggest limiting factors are technology and the human influence (costs, timing, and certainly ego). I've worked in a studio, never behind the board, but I was pretty good at setting up spaces and mic placement (my brother-in-law owned a studio for many years). Most of the music that came out of there never got mastered, and even though the bass is a bit boomy, or there are some uneven levels, I like listening to it because it isn't smashed together. Whenever possible, if a client was paying to have our mixes mastered, we'd go to the mastering session (at least part of it) to hear what they were doing. At the time, we were mixing down to an Alesis Masterlink hard disc recorder and I'd just take it out of the rack, put it in a road case and take the whole thing to the mastering studio. No issues though, because our mastering guys were super awesome and happy to let us hang out. That was always fun. I realize not everyone has that same experience. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 31 minutes ago, tigerwoodKhorns said: That is funny. I don't doubt it for a second. Have Heresy and no sub. Happy! 37 minutes ago, MechEngVic said: True. It's actually a lot like speaker making, or most of anything that is produced by humans. Even today, the two biggest limiting factors are technology and the human influence (costs, timing, and certainly ego). I've worked in a studio, never behind the board, but I was pretty good at setting up spaces and mic placement (my brother-in-law owned a studio for many years). Most of the music that came out of there never got mastered, and even though the bass is a bit boomy, or there are some uneven levels, I like listening to it because it isn't smashed together. Sorry Tiger... forum problem... Welcome to the forum, where we all are still learning...danalog02* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 @danalog02 ...Heresy for nearfield in use... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danalog02 Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 31 minutes ago, tigerwoodKhorns said: That is funny. I don't doubt it for a second. Seriously. There were so many insanely talented people here in Nashville. I kept thinking about the great stuff we could have done with them, but we were a mid-sized studio on Music Row. Mortgage and insurance was insane and we just couldn't afford to work on spec or pro bono. On the other hand, kids would show up from out of town with daddy's credit card to make it big because they were hot shit wherever they were from. They'd take meetings with every publisher in town only to be given (what they didn't know was) C and D drawer material. They'd hire the best session guys in Nashville and drop tens of thousands on recording, mixing and mastering. The recordings and musicianship was always amazing, but a bad song is still polishing a turd. They were called custom records or vanity tracks. No substance. The standing joke was, "Hey kid! Want to know the fastest way to make a million dollars in the Nashville record industry? Start with two million." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danalog02 Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 2 minutes ago, billybob said: @danalog02 ...Heresy for nearfield in use... Not sure I'd have them as nearfields. I don't think the sound would converge well that close. I might use them for midfields if I could back them up far enough to get everything evenly. And have them on stands with mid horns aiming to ear level but cabinet bottoms at least level with the top of the console or DAW mixing desk. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 15 minutes ago, danalog02 said: Not sure I'd have them as nearfields. I don't think the sound would converge well that close. I might use them for midfields if I could back them up far enough to get everything evenly. And have them on stands with mid horns aiming to ear level but cabinet bottoms at least level with the top of the console or DAW mixing desk. Yes, but I live in a shoebox... welcome and enjoy the talent here. Not many have fallen off of a turnip truck like I have... thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danalog02 Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 4 minutes ago, billybob said: Yes, but I live in a shoebox... welcome and enjoy the talent here. Not many have fallen off of a turnip truck like I have... thanks. Hey, you work with what you've got. I spent years banging away on ADAT and DTRS machines while all the cool kids were using DASH and Pro Tools. Then I went to RADAR. Loved it. I hate digital tape. DATs especially. Little buggers LOVED to fail on me. Had to make way too many safetys. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 1 minute ago, danalog02 said: Hey, you work with what you've got. I spent years banging away on ADAT and DTRS machines while all the cool kids were using DASH and Pro Tools. Then I went to RADAR. Loved it. I hate digital tape. DATs especially. Little buggers LOVED to fail on me. Had to make way too many safetys. Like that attitude... thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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