Khorn Crossover advice

[Tom Mobley]

Pat,

If you're using Outlook or one of it's variants, display the email from the guy and go to the menus, View/Options, it will show you the internet header in the box in the lower part of the window. Usually the internet header is longer than what will fit in the box so there's a scroll bar on the right. Make sure you are at the top of the header, click the first character and hold the button down, drag the cursor to the bottom. What you end up doing is sort of bouncing the cursor off the bottom of the box a few times to get it to scroll down to the bottom of the header. If you do the click and hold thing right you will see the lines of text highlight as the cursor goes down to the bottom of the header.

Then let go of the mouse button and hit Control-C, that will copy the header text into the clipoard memory.

Open an email to me tmoble@earthlink.net Once the blinking cursor is in the body of the new email to me hit Control-V, the message header text will be pasted into the new email.

Title the message something like "email header text from Klipsch Forum" and I'll get it, help you decode the header info for the guy's ISP and whatnot.

If you have trouble with this, call me on my cell at 602-550-2009, I'll walk you thru it.

Tom (Are you using a Mac? If you are you will still be able to do this, but I don't know the specific menu choices or keystrokes.)

[JBryan]

I was searching the Asylum and found a fellow named Tony Welsh of TW Tubes who is selling NOS PIO caps from Russia. A box of 6 10uf/630v PIO caps cost $25; 6-4uf/630v - $20; 6-1.0uf/750v - $20.

(http://www.tonywelsh.com/paper_capacitors.html)

He does a lot of business on eBay and his FB is good. I'm wondering how the Russian caps compare with the Jensen or AudioNote. Does anyone have any experience with these caps or done business with this gentleman? By my estimate, I could totally screw up the xovers 3 times before I'd have to place another order... Ha. Thanks for your help, Bryan

[Cut-Throat]

OK Mobile - Got the schematic and Layout Pic. Do you have have a recommended parts list? Brand of caps, Inductors etc.?

Thanks,

[Guy Landau]

You can read about it in the Updating older speakers section.

The topic is:Xover experts ........

[NOSValves]

JBryan,

I can attest that the Russian coupling caps are of great quality for amplifiers. I have never used these larger PIO caps but I bet they are great also !!

Craig

[John Warren]

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On 11/23/2002 4:53:15 PM Pland wrote:

Gents,

I just bought a pair of 1985 Klipschorns.Can you get me up to speed on crossover and other mods?These are my first Klipsch speakers,and I can't wait!

Best,

Pat----------------

You have two roads go down, one is to embark on a series of endless tweaks that will result in "fractional or zilch dB changes" that only you will be able to hear (you think) or you could listen to them for a few months, attend a few live performances, listen critically and then start to ask yourself what does the Klipschorn do well and what needs to be changed? The second action item takes effort, money and some basic understanding of the physics of sound. Some of us have gone that road with mixed results. Due to the accessiblilty of the networks, the "tweakers" have decided they are inferior and need to be changed. Do any of the changes makes the sound output "sonically closer" to the input signal? Who knows, NO ONE on this board has the distortion figures to back up their claims and you absolutley CANNOT trust your ears because they are easily fooled by your brain (the Beraneck effect OR Beranecks "Law" for his former students).

[mobile homeless]

Thanks for the input Julian.....oops....I mean John. Have a great T-Day!

kh

[Randy Bey]

John,

not all of us are hacks here, who quickly pony up first the mega bucks for Klipschorns, then within days put in our orders for ALK networks.

That does seem to be the predominant attitude here, true.

I know I do not share this opinion with you, but in my consideration the Klipschorn is a very good speaker, better than all the others I have listened to in the last 30 years. No, I have not listened to all the speakers in the world, so no doubt you can reel off a list of 'better' speakers, IYHO.

I think the decision to go back to an A style network is not akin to putting in an ALK; PWK intended and prefered the A network.

I spend long periods of time listening and comparing the whole system to live music. I agonize over what is right and what is wrong, and often because I can discern a difference but don't know which one is closer to true. Confucious says, "Man with one watch always knows what time it is; man with two watches is never sure."

That you cannot stand the sound of the K400 horn, giving you a headache, just indicates to me that you have had little experience with khorns. Perhaps that Phase Linear amp was the culprit, and not that 'ear burner'? Or the room, or the source, or any number of other variables that you may or may not have taken into account?

It's easy to throw pies. Try to bake one once in a while.

[sunnysal]

John, The ONLY way to decide if a speaker (or a tweak) is of value, is by listening. I don't care what the measurments are. perhaps that is what you find frustrating about our hobby, perhaps we have different goals. I wish to create a reproduction of a musical event that is the most pleasing to ME, gives me the most pleasure. The pursuit of "flat response" and minimum distortion is one approach to reproduction however, we have all heard time and time again that many components that measure excellently in distortion or response curves, etc. can sound terrible. We have also seen that the same components can sound great to one listener and terrible to another. I say, let's accept the total subjectivity of the musical experience. Let's tweak and work on our components until WE are satisfied with the sound. In our room, to our ears. Not satisfied that we achieved some measurements on paper (or a PC screen) that tell us we are correctly reproducing square waves, etc. I like tubes, I LOVE my k-horns, I know that every single item in the chain affects the sound of the music coming out, that makes tweaking very difficult and subjective. I will be trying a type A x-over because I still wish to effect some changes in the music and suspect that the sound change via type A may very well be in the right direction FOR ME, with my existing equipment, in my room, with my music tastes. I suspect this due to the comments of othher enthusiasts who have been kind enough to relate their experiences on the board. I may be wrong, the resulting sound may not please me, we will find out and I will report to my fellow hobbiests the results. That is what this sharing of subjective opinion is all about, learning from fellow enthusiasts. Sorry for the rambling but I was, for the first time, slightly insulted by your suggestion that we are all nuts and hacks for trying to tweak our equipment into increasing our listening pleasure. regards, tony

[John Warren]

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On 11/28/2002 9:18:26 AM Randy Bey wrote:

John,

not all of us are hacks here, who quickly pony up first the mega bucks for Klipschorns, then within days put in our orders for ALK networks.

That does seem to be the predominant attitude here, true.

>>so by your own admission the majority here are "hacks" and then you question where I come from???? It was a good thing that Klipsch made the network user accessible otherwise everyone here (except for the smallest minority) would have nothing to "tweak".

I know I do not share this opinion with you, but in my consideration the Klipschorn is a very good speaker, better than all the others I have listened to in the last 30 years. No, I have not listened to all the speakers in the world, so no doubt you can reel off a list of 'better' speakers, IYHO.

>>The LF unit is an engineering solution to a practical problem. The midrange and tweeter are inferior and do not display the same level of ingenuity. Are there better speakers? Yes, IMO there are a number that sound better.

I think the decision to go back to an A style network is not akin to putting in an ALK; PWK intended and prefered the A network. I spend long periods of time listening and comparing the whole system to live music. I agonize over what is right and what is wrong, and often because I can discern a difference but don't know which one is closer to true. Confucious says, "Man with one watch always knows what time it is; man with two watches is never sure."

That you cannot stand the sound of the K400 horn, giving you a headache, just indicates to me that you have had little experience with khorns.

>>I'm not going to debate this, the K400 al and poly versions are not very impressive. They sound marginal and better technologies are out there.

Perhaps that Phase Linear amp was the culprit, and not that 'ear burner'? Or the room, or the source, or any number of other variables that you may or may not have taken into account?

>>I do not own, nor have I ever owned a Phase Linear amp.

It's easy to throw pies. Try to bake one once in a while.

>>what have you "baked" lately???

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[tubelion]

Hi John,

I gladly accept the comment to attend live performance.

It is the greatest reason for me to own klipsch, it is better than other speaker in this very aspect, reproduce live music! It sounds great for Peter Paul and Mary live performance, or other live recording. I tcould be due to the dynamic headroom. But sadly in other area klipsch has many better rivals.

As far as modification or tweaks concern, Usually there is no need to do it if the design is good and the selling price allow the designer to use good quality parts.

My Jadis 300B has no modification done, only good tubes are used instead, when it is so easy to change the tubes back and forth, unlikely the sound difference can't be due to psychological reason or the Beraneck effect OR Beranecks "Law".

When good design is using fair quality parts that is another story. Marantz 7 is a wonderful design but leave many rooms for improvement, but certainly one can enjoy the original one with no regret.

But come to good design but bad quality parts (price concern), that is a must to change it. Crossover of Klipsch heritage line is an interesting example, as the original design is good- type A but was force to change to poorer design many years later for protection reason, not only that the parts quality is really bad. Back to type A is better, using good quality parts make it an excellent product.

We don't bother any poor design be it using bad parts (usually) or good quality parts ( a waste).

Many owners modify the crossover, there is good reason behind, we have good design by PWK, resonably good drivers and wood building work, back to type A with at least fairly good parts is logical, not much psychological effect in it because it is cheap to make it.

My result is good , I shall post it with photos later, the original network and parts will be displaced too, what a shame! Everyone can judge himself.

PWK and klipsch got the reputation long long time ago with the type A network and using good oil caps at that time.

Why not hear the orignal original original klipsch?

Try it yourself, my friend.

Have fun in your holiday.

Tubelion

[John Warren]

Tubelion-I have a pair of AA networks that I built using *audiophile* components. The circuit is faithful to the original design. The modifed AAs are less lossy BUT when adjusted for volume, on a sided by side comparison with the OEM version I cannot identify it with any reliablity

and neither can any of my cadre of local audio nerds (one guy "does" works for Bose but we routinely ignore him inspite of the fact that he has earned a PhD in loudspeaker magnet design from MIT). My hearing's not up to snuff but I'm not deaf either (or yet).

The only attribute afforded by a horns is high efficiency. This is offset by nonlinearites associated with high pressures at the throat (air is not an ideal gas load like, for example, mobile homeless).

Nonlinear compression at the throat gets lots of industrial attention today and AES has seminars and sessions devoted to the topic. To "bypass" the issue entirely, some companies like JBL, McCauley and Selenium are offering direct radiators with 102+ dB/W/m sensitivies. "We live in the midrange" (a quote of PWK's) and the networks mods affect, primarly, the output of the midrange horn. But modifying the network to "correct" the short comings of the horn's physical limitations is a path I've elected not to follow.

[tubelion]

Dear John,

From your other post, I learn that you are knowledgeable in many areas and is a serious audiophile because you enjoy music.

For this simple issue, I am glad you have AA network with audiophile grade parts.

So you need to do very little things that you can try the type A like Randy has done. If again there is not much difference , then you are happy with your decision.

If there is improvement like we claim and like what PWK has enjoyed, try some better parts too.

I have a few tips: you are inUSA, so not difficult to get good oil caps and will get them cheap, right?

try to make up the 13 mf by several caps, I use UK tcc in the .5 mf , it is famous for the mid range. I hate to lose the tcc in ebay last night but it is 80 for two 1mf, checked under tcc capacitors.

I am busy today otherwise I will put up the photos and result in a few days on a separate topic about the process.

It is my shame to learn post up photo when everyone says it is so easy.

But when it is so easy to do a type A or convert one , give it and yourself a try, give PWK's design a fair try.

My best regards ( to you and all music lovers and serious audiophiles )

Tubelion

[mobile homeless]

Tubelion, are we talking about the same John Warren?

kh

[tubelion]

Hi Kh,

I think the same John we are talking to.

My type A is done.

Will take time to fine tuned.

Tubelion