Well, I'm officially back in the Epic club

[avguytx]

Things worked in a deal and I now own a pair of black satin version 1 CF-3's and they sound awesome. I've missed Epic sound since selling my others a few years back but now I'm happy once again.  These and my ads L1230's are all the speakers I care to keep around anymore. At some point this fall, I'm going to strip the black off and re-veneer them in something like cherry, walnut, or mahogany; or maybe something else.  They're easy enough as it's only tops and sides.  Not really worrying about crossovers, bracing cabinets, etc.  These seem to be solid and I won't touch them unless they have a glue issue like my other pair did.  

 

Next thing I may be pondering is a different amp to go with this wall of stuff.  I like the Onkyo Reference preamp but thinking about more power.  Thought about an Adcom GFA-5802 which is 300wpc and also a MC7270, but, that one goes a little above my pay grade.  

 

Here's the standard obligatory picture.  Just a basic setup anymore. 

 

 

[Shiva]

Excellent!  👍  The obligatory picture is welcomed.  Look at the size of that Epic horn.   Nice space too.  

[Emile]

18 minutes ago, avguytx said:

I may be pondering is a different amp

Hi avguytx,

 

Welcome back to the "Epic club"   Driving my CF-3's with a Kenwood Basic M2A (and a C2 preamp). Highly underrated amp (220wpc) which can sometimes be found for about $250. Good luck!

[avguytx]

1 hour ago, Shiva said:

Excellent!  👍  The obligatory picture is welcomed.  Look at the size of that Epic horn.   Nice space too.  

 

Thanks! When I initially drew up the room, I had a dedicated circuit wired on the long wall and now I'm over on the short wall.  Oh well. Room is 32' long and other end has the (unused) 800 LP's, 4 guitars, a tread mill, bathroom and closet. Lol. 

 

1 hour ago, Emile said:

Hi avguytx,

 

Welcome back to the "Epic club"   Driving my CF-3's with a Kenwood Basic M2A (and a C2 preamp). Highly underrated amp (220wpc) which can sometimes be found for about $250. Good luck!

 

I sold those back in the mid 80's and always liked the Basic series. Only thing I have a beef with these days is I don't care to use a preamp without a remote control. I'm silly like that. Lol. That was a great amp and it used that Sigma Drive setup which had some occasional issues "if/when" someone happened to unplug one side of the circuit while it was playing.  Man, we jammed on those amps.  

 

I'd also have to change out those stupid twist lock wire connections. Lol. 

[avguytx]

Actually, I have 2 pairs of CF-3's; both in satin black.  One pair are version 1's, s/n 242491171 & 72 (Tuesday Aug 30th, 1994) and the other pair may be a cross between version 2 & 3.  Their s/n's are 212596787 & 88 (Monday July 31st, 1995) which make them almost a year apart.  The horns seem to be more black than gray and the woofer cones not near as stiff as the others, like the Oak CF-3's I had before which were version 3's, but they have the clear jacket speaker wiring.  They sound outstanding though, and are in great shape, but doubtful I keep both as I don't need that many speakers around.

 

At some point, I'll go into both of them and "survey" what each have in them for parts and maybe that can shed a little more light on the 3 versions that seems to be all over the place.  Except version 1's, those are pretty cut and dried unless any potential warranty work was done.

[avguytx]

Last night, I had to remove one of the crossovers part way as I was loosening the connectors on them to remove the straps and one was tight enough that it loosened the nut on the back side.  I typically always replace those cheap pieces with some 12ga speaker wire, anyway.  While I was there, I snapped a few basic photos.  I almost thought someone had already replaced the caps as there were black caps with yellow ends reminding me of the Dayton 5% caps.  But, they are stock.    I'm thinking about changing those 8 binding posts out as they are rather tarnished and faded.  I'm not sure yet if I want to replace the 40uf and 25uf (or similar) electrolytic caps in the woofer circuit like I did my other CF-3's.  But, I may see what all resistors are there and check the pricing on the Mills 12w versions.

 

@wvu80  I may try what you did with the polyfill on the lower section and see what happens.  Doesn't hurt to try.  I may go ahead and wrap the horns with some (removeable) black Coban wrap like they use in medical.  I'm curious how it will react on those horns in comparison to using silicone or "dynamat" type material.  Not going to go crazy or at least I say that at this point.

 

 

 

 

 

[jjptkd]

On 8/30/2021 at 4:12 PM, avguytx said:

Things worked in a deal and I now own a pair of black satin version 1 CF-3's and they sound awesome.

 

Next thing I may be pondering is a different amp Thought about an Adcom GFA-5802 which is 300wpc

 

Nice! I've had a pair of those sometime back and really enjoyed them. I also had the Adcom 5800 and thought it was a wonderful sounding amplifier, maybe even a touch more detailed than my Sunfire amplifiers-- only reason I got rid of it was because you could practically cook an egg on the thing and with no A/C at the time in the middle of summer it was a deal breaker. 

 

If you're concerned at all about heat from the amp I'd strongly recommend Sunfire amplifiers as an alternative-- very close in sound quality with good strong power but very little heat.

[avguytx]

8 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

Nice! I've had a pair of those sometime back and really enjoyed them. I also had the Adcom 5800 and thought it was a wonderful sounding amplifier, maybe even a touch more detailed than my Sunfire amplifiers-- only reason I got rid of it was because you could practically cook an egg on the thing and with no A/C at the time in the middle of summer it was a deal breaker. 

 

I've kind of ruled against the Adcom 5802 as I don't want a room heater since the upstairs is already warmer in the summer since it's above the garage.  ha.  I'd been looking for a Sunfire 2 channel amp, too, but there are darn near none for sale anywhere.  Even on e b a y, all you see are the 5 or 7 channels amps.  I do have a (signed by Bob) Carver M-1.0t that's been heavily updated/upgraded and quite powerful but I've not had it on these CF-3's yet....just my 80wpc Onkyo Reference amp, which does sound nice.  Years ago, I was a rep for Sunfire and as they were closing out some of the older 2 channel stuff, stupid me didn't buy the preamp for $150 (new) at cost when they were closing them out or the big *** 2 channel amp for $500.  I still kick myself for that one.

[avguytx]

So, are the version 1's known to be a little "hot" in the 2 to 3kHz range?  These seem to have quite a peak around that point that I don't recall the version 3's having.  It's more pronounced on some music more than others but darn near makes me want to add an EQ of some sort just to tame that area down a bit.  Still deliberating on doing anything with the crossovers just yet.  I may tinker with them more this week since I'm on vacation and just hanging out at home.

[avguytx]

I kept thinking the left speaker was louder in the mid/high range and I swapped their positions this morning and it follows the speaker for sure.  For the last couple of weeks, I kept thinking it was a furniture thing, which I moved down first to test and the right speaker still wasn't as "hot" as the left.  I sit in a leather recliner centered about 14 feet back from the fronts of the speakers and they are placed about 8 feet apart on center.  Also, there is about 2-1/2 feet of space from each to the wall on the sides.  Those ads L1230's in the far corners aren't hooked up and are used if I swap them around, which get physically moved to the right spots.  

 

I may move the CF-3's into the corners now and toe them in towards the center some and see how that sounds.  The problem with that may be is when I push this love seat (not seen in pic) back to where it normally sits (it has to be symmetrical for my wife), it will block too much of the right one.  Plus, I've always had this thing about speakers being right next to the side walls because of their reflections.  

 

Maybe it's time to explore checking the parts count in the crossovers and see what that's entails.  Nothing crazy or elaborate or reinventing the wheel.  Maybe some Mundorf caps and Mills resistors.

 

On another note, I'd been hearing a slight rattle in one speaker which had me worried in a way.  I do have 2 replacements K-63-N drivers and a brand new replacement woofer but was sure hoping I wasn't going to have to replace something.  I was listening to Bria Skonberg's "Blackout" track and the noise was very pronounced....a definite rattle similar to a V/C, surround, spider, etc., but not quite the "thwack" of a loose back panel.  So, I removed the bottom woofer and listened to it by itself and it sounded like a normal woofer working in free-air.  I reached in to check the tightness of the K-63-N driver and it was loose by about a complete turn and a half.  I thought that had fixed it but apparently it did not, so, out came the woofer again as that's where it seems to come from.  It seems to be that plastic frame that's there for looks.  I took the new replacement woofer and hooked up in place and there was no plastic trim ring noise, or any noise in general.  I have a brand new K-1030-KN but I believe I've read where the version 1's used K-1022-KN woofers.  I doubt there would be any audible difference but you can definitely tell the difference in the cone thickness and maybe the surround.

 

 

[Shiva]

Hmm, it's a bit of a bother having to deal with multiple issues.  When the highs seem hot, is that at higher volumes or at all listening levels?    Does your pre have tone controls? How do you have them toed in? perhaps, aim them out a bit more to diminish the highs.      I think it a good idea to try them in the corners. The CF, which stands for controlled focus, is supposed to diminish side reflections and direct more energy to the listener, at least they put that in print.  😀  The rattle sounds annoying.  I wonder if it could also be a loose dust cap issue?

[absolve2525]

3 hours ago, avguytx said:

I kept thinking the left speaker was louder in the mid/high range and I swapped their positions this morning and it follows the speaker for sure.  For the last couple of weeks, I kept thinking it was a furniture thing, which I moved down first to test and the right speaker still wasn't as "hot" as the left.  I sit in a leather recliner centered about 14 feet back from the fronts of the speakers and they are placed about 8 feet apart on center.  Also, there is about 2-1/2 feet of space from each to the wall on the sides

I would definitely check the dust cap. I had that issue on a couple Klipsch models using these poly cones. Some clear Aleene's craft glue works well. 

[avguytx]

1 hour ago, absolve2525 said:

I would definitely check the dust cap. I had that issue on a couple Klipsch models using these poly cones. Some clear Aleene's craft glue works well. 

 

That's what I was really hoping it would be and I'll try to dig some more into it later or maybe tomorrow morning.  It's not noticeable on everything I listen to but you know it when you hear it.  I do have Aleene's glue here along with a couple others I use for surrounds and grill cloth.

[avguytx]

4 hours ago, Shiva said:

Hmm, it's a bit of a bother having to deal with multiple issues.  When the highs seem hot, is that at higher volumes or at all listening levels?    Does your pre have tone controls? How do you have them toed in? perhaps, aim them out a bit more to diminish the highs.      I think it a good idea to try them in the corners. The CF, which stands for controlled focus, is supposed to diminish side reflections and direct more energy to the listener, at least they put that in print.  😀  The rattle sounds annoying.  I wonder if it could also be a loose dust cap issue?

Very true.  But it's always something with older gear and just part of it.  The "hotness" isn't as bad till you give it a little more power but you still notice it's there plus it can be seen on an RTA.  My Onkyo P-3000R preamp has bass and treble controls and I typically run them flat as they aren't usually needed.  I barely had them toed in and straightened them up but you still hear it in that range.  It mainly prevents you from playing some music loud....say classic rock like AC/DC, Heart, .38 Special, etc., without it getting irritating.  Looking at the RTA, it starts rising at 1kHz and then starts tapering off about 6kHz....just a peak in that area.  

 

I'm going to check the dust cap out again maybe later just to see.  I'm glad it's not the cabinets that are rattling like the others I had did, but fixed.  When I strip the black satin off and re-veneer in something else, I'll do some bracing on the insides.

[avguytx]

I think bi-amping will be a big difference as my preamp has level controls for both outputs for balancing.  My thoughts have been on using an Adcom GFA 555 (200x2) on the woofers and the 535 (60x2) on the top end.  Or some other brand of amps where I can keep them similarly powered.  I hooked my highly updated Carver M-1.0t, rated at 460x2, and it does a fine job, too.

[Emile]

5 hours ago, Shiva said:

CF, which stands for controlled focus

Haha; thanks - learned something  

[Shiva]

6 minutes ago, Emile said:

Haha; thanks - learned something  

Actually it's Controlled Focus Technology. 👍 My bad. perhaps, its the Tractrix horn that focuses the energy to the listener. I don't know  I read it all in this brochure. 😀  I've posted it before..

 

http://images.klipsch.com/Brochure_940900-1_epic_635363540623046000.pdf 

[avguytx]

Yep, I've got that same brochure.  Good info.

[avguytx]

Tomorrow, I'm going to move the version 2's in place of the 1's and see what the differences might be in that 2kHz peak range.  It's really irritating on most anything you listen to.  I've gone from the Onkyo Reference amp to my trusty upgraded Carver M-1.0t with the same results. No toe in, either. My plan is to pick 5 songs I'm very familiar with and listen to the version 1's, then the 2's, then move the ads L1230's in last and have a comparison. Hell, maybe I need an EQ. 

[avguytx]

I made the switching a little easier.  The ads L1230's were already there so I hooked them up to compare and it's what I kind of thought it would be.  Those exhibit similar amount of "gain" at those frequencies which obviously tells me it's about where they're located now.  For the last year, I've mainly used everything on the long wall where the speakers were maybe 8 or 9 feet apart and I was seated about 10 or 11 feet back from the front of the speakers since the distance wall to wall is a little over 14 feet.  Now, they are on the short wall firing into a room that's 30 feet deep and I'm sitting about 14 feet back with the speakers spaced 11 feet apart on center.  Just different acoustics.....nothing else.

 

So I guess now the search is on for some equalization to reduce some gain spots.  Obviously the bass on the CF-3's is kickin' now that they are in the corners.....about 10" off the side walls and a few inches off the back with a slight tilt in.  I definitely like the bass better this way.  No sub needed/.

 

Recommendations on EQ?  Anything that I can control via computer with a mic?  The REW stuff?  My setup is pretty simple; Preamp....amplifier....CD player....turntable....streaming PC....speakers.  My Onkyo preamp has a processor loop built in that can be utilized, too, so hookup is easy.