Wanna get a TT...

[justin_tx_16]

what about this one?

http://www.musichallaudio.com/products/products.asp?lookup=mmf%202.1

[maxg]

I am no longer sure if the Music halls are just badged Pro-jects or not as they seem to be made in the same factories....

AS it is most people seem to think either are a good step into vinyl (look what the RPM 4 Pro-ject did for me...).

I think you might also want to check out the Pro-ject debut and debut phono (with built in phono stage to work with any inpt on your amp/pre-amp).

Other than that I think they both represent very good value for money...

[NOSValves]

Justin,

I have a few nice used and properly setup units if your interested. I have one nice Dual 502 with a grado cartridge brand new if your interested drop me a email at craigostby@comcast.net

Craig

[leok]

Justin,

I've been using a Dual TT w/ Grado for several years .. very nice.

leok

[Colin]

I loved the one that I used, and so does Sterophile ...

[Mighty Favog]

Darn it Justin! I thought you were talkin' about another Audi...

[justin_tx_16]

----------------

On 12/19/2002 2:36:40 PM tblasing wrote:

Darn it Justin! I thought you were talkin' about another Audi...

----------------

No no, I am too tall for a TT, an Audi TT. 6' 2" is too tall for a TT apparently haha.

I want to spend around $200, don't want to get too much money into it because I also need an iPod and a new computer and a new monitor and am building a sonosub and may trade in my Honda Accord (2001) for a 2003 because that only costs me $278 a month and my Audi A4 is just too small for all I carry around... all my friends. Don't know what I will do with the Audi, maybe sell it to my brother, except he has this problem with wrecking nice cars...

So would this be a good step or can I get something better for the same price or around that.

[HDBRbuilder]

Justin,

you already have my recommendation...the only problem I would worry about is the shipping of it though, once you got one...it may be a better bet to look around the Houston area in those shops I mentioned and see if you can luck into finding one...IF you don't feel that you can talk whoever you could get one from on eBay into packing it exactly as I recommend in order to ensure its safe arrival! (It would be best to discuss this packing arrangement with a seller PRIOR to making any bid, too...IMHO!!)

[mobile homeless]

Let me guess... A Technics direct-drive table! Simply better than any "audiophool" table at less than 1/4th the price! Right? Indeed.

kh

[HDBRbuilder]

Kelly...what brought that on? Fact is Justin was looking at the newer SL-1200 to start with, but its price was more than he was wanting to pay, so I gave him another less expensive option... for under a hundred bucks normally...but with everything (and MORE) that a 1200 has to begin with! I have nothing against any of the other turntables out there...I like the old Thorens TD-125 models and all...but for under a hundred bucks???? Who's kiddin' who here? Hell...a few months back there was a nice Empire 598 Troubador in a local pawn shop here...the dust cover was trashed, but the T/T looked fine...for around 50 bucks...I just didn't need it! I suggested to Justin to look around in some of the local pawn shops and such for a model that has a reputation, but can be had on the cheap. Most pawn shops are happy to move old turntables at ANY price, since they don't move well to start with!...just in order to get em out of the way!!!

But...yes...the SL-1300 is a great buy if you can find one locally in good shape...especially since they are identical to the 1200 model of that era, have more features(none of which detract from its performance), and generally go for less than half the price of a 1200...which is strange since they originally sold for MORE than the 1200!! 1976 MSRP: SL-1200: $279.95; SL-1300: $299.95! In even considering buying a used SL-1200, I would of course be wary...no matter which version it is over the years, because so many of them have had so damned much wear and tear put on them by DJ's due to their popularity in that venue...especially in the last few years, the wear and tear would really shy me away...turntables are NOT designed to be abused by manually rotating them in both directions for sound effects!!...which is exactly what MOST SL-1200's have been put through!! But you will probably not have to worry about that issue with an old SL-1300!!...just because, if for NO OTHER REASON, it ISN'T an SL-1200!! LOL! These DJ's recognize the nomenclature when the see "SL-1200", but will ignore it when they see "SL-1300" written on it!! The key is to know what to look for in a used turntable, and in your ability to judge its condition and see much it has been abused! Once again...for under 100 bucks, an old SL-1300 in great shape is a steal!!...even moreso if it comes supplied with a nice cartridge!! Happy now? LOL!

Other recommendations IF YOU CAN FIND THEM CHEAP!!:

Thorens TD-125...any version...great T/T...belt drive

Thorens TD-160/165, or 140/145...not as good as the 125, but still a great T/T...belt drive

Technics SL-110, SL-120, SL-1100, SL-1100A...odds are you will have to be REALLY LUCKY to even find one of these, much less in great condition or at a LOW PRICE!! They generally command fairly high prices, and for good reason, too! Direct-drive...the ones that made D/D popular and Technics famous! If getting one that did not originally come with tonearm(110, 120, 120A, 1100), then be sure the tonearm it DOES have is properly mounted and in good shape...often gonna be one of the following tonearms: Audio technica AT-1005 or AT-1009; SME 3009/S2 Improved(the recommended tonearm at the time these turntables were new); Ortofon AS-212; Micro MA-202.

Technics SP-10 or SP-10-II...belt drive single play no frills dependable with damned good performance turntables!(SP-10-II also has 78 rpm speed)

Empire Troubadour 598, 698, etc. An all-time classic...not without its faults, but still one helluva turntable. Often can be found used for reasonable price just because its name is not well-known by many out of the audio mainstream. Belt-drive.

Linn Sondek LP12...great turntable, a bit finicky at times(due to its oil-bath bearing assembly vs. room temp and humidity...age and hours of use are major contributing factor to this problem, though due to moisture intruding on its oil bath...when it is working right, though, it is REALLY working right!), can sometimes be found on the cheap. belt drive.(single-speed: 33)

Dual: too many good models to list here...but also some models to definitely shy away from...best to talk to Dual owners to get their feedback...due to so many variations of models over the years...latter variation not always really better than the previous version of particular model!

There are lots of good to great older turntables out there...look around...sometimes you can get lucky and find one on the cheap!!

Anymore input??

[justin_tx_16]

all that typing for nothing. forget THIS post. not even going to consider it

[Deang]

You don't need a turntable.

I just used the Jedi Mind Trick. Did it work?

[mobile homeless]

Why did you erase that post, Justin? Nice photos of the table! Good work! Came back to post on it and it was gone.

Some nice suggestions, Andy. I think the better Thorens are nice. You will take a BIG leap up with a good Linn LP-12, but as Andy said, it is a finicky table. I will say that I have a WHOLE heap more RENEWED respect for the LINN LP-12 after auditioning this $4000 Progressive-Engineering table I have right now. I think the Linn LP-12 gets the soul of the music just about as good as any table out there. When on, it is hard to beat. I have had a plethora of table pass through my house and I rank it as one of the best, even though it doesnt get mentioned as much these days. It is surely not as neutral as the $4k PE table with Incognito wired Rega arm. But damn if it doesnt sound more analog with bloom galore.

I think the ole AR ES-1 table is nice as well. It can be found used and its a great deal. The VPI HW-19 series is a nice table used and can be upgraded. And as I said before, the MMF-7 appears to be a very nice table although I now think I would opt for a Linn LP-12 in good condition in that price range.

I like some of the more hefry Thorens options but they have to be in good condition. AS I have stated in the past, I am not a big fan of Direct Drive tables although some of those Techniques are built like tanks. THey just dont offer the bloom, silence between notes, sweetness, more pacing of the good belt drives.

The cartridge is also of big importance here. But that's a whole other post.

kh

ps- Justin, I left a response to your inquiry over in that pics post of the 6SN7 preamp

[HDBRbuilder]

Don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of ALL those Technics direct-drive turntables at all!! But the ones I mentioned, I definitely AM a fan of...they were the earliest ones...they were built to establish a reputation for a relative newcomer in the audio world...not just a middle of the road reputation, but a high-end equipment reputation!! Once that reputation was established, things began to slide!! But there definitely WAS a time in which that reputation was well-deserved, and these models are the reason why! One of the drawbacks to the DD turntables, and even especially THESE particular models, was finding a good match for a cartridge for them. It always seemed strange to me, that some very fine cartridges of those times, that pretty much ALWAYS performed wonderfully on other turntables, just never did on those Technics DD models. My personal opinion is that the large magnets in the platter(which is an integral part of the D/D motor on these) probably caused this problem. I am no electrical genius or Nobel prize-winner in physics, but that would seem the logical reason to me!...ie., the magnetic field from the large magnets in the platter wreaked havoc on the moving magnets/moving coils inside these high-end cartridges of that time....distorting the sound by having a detrimental effect on the function of the moving parts inside the cartridges! I watched alot of guys with these turntables buy the "best cartridge in the world" for them, only to take it back after a listen and get something farther down the "quality" scale, and end up loving the sound!! Anyway, once a person found the "right-sounding" cartridge for these turntables, musical heaven ensued!!

[fini]

Andy,

What cartridge did you find worked best with the 1300? I ran into one a while back, and know where another can be had for a song. I did a bit of searching on this model, seems to be an oddball in the Technics line, sort of a hybrid of sorts.

I finally got my Pioneer PL-41 up and running. I bought a Grado green, ordered a manual from A. Tannenbaum's, (O Tannenbaum...). Still need to get some damping fluid for the cueing mechanism (tends to drop the tonearm like a brick, otherwise). Clipped came by with his stylus gauge, and I set adjustments as best I could. There is no anti-skating, and neither the operating or service manuals offer instructions on VTA adjustments. It would be nice to have some other ears here to give opinions. Of course I don't have tube amplification yet, but I am pretty pleased with my Nakamichi SR-3A currently serving as my 2 channel amp. There always seem to be PL-41's on eBay that go for pretty cheap. Might be a good option for Justin. Mobile, why not pick one up, for review? Hell, it may turn out to be the next HF-81-type sensation! Diamond-in-the-rough, ya know.

[HDBRbuilder]

Fini,

I had already decided to get a spare headshell for the 1300, when I bought it...and to have two cartridges to use....one for just regular stereo stuff, and one for quad stuff. I was one of those folks who got caught up in the hoopla of "high-price and great reviews must mean the cartridge can't be beat" kinda thinking. And initially went that route...BIG MISTAKE!!

But...I was able to return these if I didn't like them, too...and I did!! You are probably gonna laugh, but the stereo cartridge of that time that sounded best to me was the old Sure M95ED!! LOL! AND it was WAY cheap too!!...about 20 bucks! Much less expensive than the ones I initially tried!! By far!! But, I also found that for CD-4 cartridges, it wasn't the most-raved-about one that worked best too!! I ended up trying almost all of these...and then I decided on the JVC 4MD-20X, with shibata nude diamond stylus. It really made the 1300 perform!!! Matter of fact...I ended up using it almost exclusively!! And I still do!

The SL-1300 wasn't really an oddball...especially since, of all the models Technics sold during the time of the original 1300 version, it was the best seller! The other 13XX models just weren't as good as it was, IMHO! Especially the later MK versions of the 1300 itself, even though they had quartz-locked speed control, were not as well built, and many had problems with their viscous cueing, which never was a problem with the earlier ones...from my experience, anyway!

Kelly,

Just a little note here. One of the reasons I didn't opt for the Linn was that it was only single speed...33...and I liked to play 45's in many instances...if for no other reason than the 45 gives better fidelity with its greater rpm speed. I still enjoy the better fidelity of 45's, too. I will be the first to admit, that it was awhile before 45 rpms were "revamped" to the quality of their 33 rpm kin...after all, the 45 came on the scene LONG BEFORE the 33 did, but once that happened, and once the 45's began to arrive in stereo, instead of just the previous mono offerings, in most instances a song on 45 sounded much better than its 33 version!

[fini]

Andy,

I think I may have mis-remembered (?) the model number. It may have been the 1301. I'll just keep posting different model numbers, and you tell me when to stop...

fini

[mobile homeless]

This table has always intrigued me. It looks so neat and is obviously the neatest table from Pioneer from that era. I actually have a Pioneer belt drive table here that I modified and tweaked a bit for my wife's American Culture Music/Literature class. But the 41 looks really groovy.

The only problem I have found is that most turntables tend to be underachievers. A lot of them can do an OK job, including direct drive units. I had a top of the hill 76 Yamaha YP-D series table that worked well with a Sumiko Blue point and a good mat. But the majority of tables are just OK. I found that the simpler the better. Belt drive. Good platter. Bearing. Rigid tonearm with good bearings. No quartz lock/speed adjustment as the minute corrections/recorrections can affect the presention-since of timing-rhythm-pacing of table.

But I think the cartridge is important and I think Andy's comments interesting although I dont come to the same conclusions concerning the 1200 series and those surrounding it. Contrary to his findings, I found good cartridges really HELP these tables greatly. In fact, usuing the HO MC Blue Point on the Technics 1200 mkII brought that table up to a much better performance. Around 91, the BP was not very much at $100 from AA. I imagine others would work as well although Andy is correct about the magnets. Still, there are some much better options than that bottom rung Shure. The cartridge really has a great affect here. I think the low end cartridges are really pretty medicore from what I have found. It's rare when they DO perform to high levels. The oringal Grado FTE 1+ and the ZTE 1+ were examples of cartridges that DID work well when you have the right table/arm and did not have a hum problem. These cartridges, however, didnt do too well on the 1200 mk II. And although I like the 1200 Mk II and its compartriots for the build, I just dont think they have the air, bloom, and blackness of presentation of even some cheaper belt drives, quite possibly your Pioneer.

Andy, as for the Linn LP-12, the dedication to 33 is a pain. Thankfully, all you can order a pulley adapter that makes the Linn LP-12 work at 45rpm. Also, you could use one of the power filter /speed controllers from the likes of VPI to control the speed via the power although some of the Linn PS options dont do well with this.

kh

[Frzninvt]

Nobody has mentioned some of the older Denon turntables, Denon used to build some of the nicest turntables back in '80's and early 90's. The model that had the three backlight square buttons on the side of the table was super nice, DP-62L? Anyway, I would give them a look.

[HDBRbuilder]

Kelly,

One of the reasons I use that JVC is because it eats the lunch of the Sure cartridge! My original intent to "save the JVC for just quad listening" got put by the wayside pretty quickly, mainly for that reason...it also had to do with pure laziness...so that I didn't have to reset the weight and anti-skate and such all the time...but the main reason was the performance of the JVC cartridge. JVC did not actually make this cartridge, they outsourced their cartridges back then and had them made up badged as a JVC. I wondered about this when I bought it...and just for the hell of it, did comparisons between it and others available at the time...to see which one it looked like...the only one I found that had the same exact appearance and all, but in a different color, was an Audio-technica model whose nomenclature escapes me these many years later. That particular Audio-Techinca was selling for almost 25 bucks more than the JVC($65) in 1976. Even the interior lucite box thingies they were both packed in within the outer box were identical except for the badge on them. That JVC was also NOT their TOTL CD-4 cartridge, either...matter of fact, it was their bottom-line model, with two others priced higher at the time, and I tried all three of them out...with the one I ended up buying being the best performer on the 1300!! I had also given the Grado F1+(about $90 for my cost then), and their G1+(about $100, ditto) a try, and although these were great Grado cartridges of that time, the JVC I ended up with was better on the SL-1300. FYI, I also gave some "high-end" Pickerings, Stantons, and Ortofons a try, too!

One of the problems Technics was trying to address in 1976 was just WHY certain cartridges that otherwise should be great performers were NOT giving that performance on their D/D turntables...and to find out just WHICH cartridges DID perform well! They even had a card to fill-out and mail back to them specifically aimed at this problem...it had numerous cartridges listed on it, and boxes to check whether the sender had tried them, and a ratings thing for the results...even some blank spaces for cartridges not listed. It appears they were intently working on this problem for later to-be-released models and versions of existing models.