Mc Donalds

[Audible Nectar]

There are valid arguments on several fronts here.

I do agree that management is part of the problem here. It's the "peter principle" at work - continue promoting your help until they become incompetent, then leave them there. However, I will say that the biggest problem (on either a mamagement or rank and file level) is accountability. Pay a fair wage, and expect fair work in return.

But this cuts both ways too. If managers are paid paltry wages, they attract s#itty candidates. If they are truly qualified, these managers either get promoted or get a better offer elsewhere. It becomes a constant state of turnover, which breeds confusion - like changing your team's coach and quarterback on a weekly basis. Good work is rarely rewarded (you just get to keep your job at paltry wages) - bad work results in a firing (if the customer is lucky).

What results is a "Wal Mart" mentality of lowest wages, with customers who will only pay the lowest prices (and in many cases, can only afford to pay the lowest prices, because they work such jobs - AKA "the downward spiral"). I've developed a relatively new approach to purchasing: If I expect service, I must be willing to pay for it. I expect people to be paid better wages, so I try to patronize establishments who pay better wages. Wal Mart, Best Buy, and other big megacorps are no longer getting my business. I try to focus on more local businesses as well, who keep more dollars in the local community.

In other words, everything has it's price. Want rock bottom prices?? Expect numerous rock bottom paying jobs right behind them. Do this enough, and you could be right there with them. OTOH, if you expect service (which requires qualified people who can and will deliver), then you must be willing to pay for it.

I do understand that these fast food jobs are intended to be "entry level" jobs, but too often, they become more permanent. There are less options every day for good paying jobs (no matter what the level of education the worker brings to the table). Many $1 burgers must be sold to pay any kind of meaningful wage.

As much as we demand a good price, we should be demanding higher wages even more. As a consumer, I try to put my money where my mouth is. If I do not think that flipping burgers or taking orders for 5.50 per hour isn't a "fair wage", they don't get my business. And in McDonald's case, they DON'T (not to mention that the food is crap anyway, even when prepared properly).

I vote with my $$$$$$$$$. So does everyone else, they just may not realize it. There is a balance between product quality (customer care) and the actions of the company (employee care). If the company does right on both ends, they get my business.

[minn_male42]

"supply and demand" does not excuse sloppy work!!

i assume that most of us in here at one time had taken an "entry-level" job at whatever the current minimum wage was....i don't know about the rest of you, but i did care about the job.

what started this thread was the fact that many of today's entry level workers just don't give a damn....it's an attitude...not an issue about minimum wage....will these same lazy *** kids that screw up your order at a fast food place do a better job if you doubled or tripled their wages??...NOT

[TBrennan]

Minn---Sure they'll work harder for more money, everybody does. I've seen it happen.

Besides, it's a Right-Wing Republican article of faith that you must pay people more money to motivate them, not a Liberal one. That's why Jack Welsh needed zillions of dollars and jets and stuff, otherwise he wouldn't have done the job, right?

[HDBRbuilder]

Just a little comment here, take it forever what you feel it is worth!

When I got out of the army in 1976, my monthly take home pay, including hazardous duty pay was $476! WHen I got home, I was drawing $125 a week on unemployment, which was UNTAXED at that time, and had more money than when I was on active duty in the army(over $500 a month!).

Then after a couple of weeks on unemployment, I went to Klipsch and got hired on at a nickel over minimum wage($2.25 per hour)...and my take-home pay dropped to below my previous job, and certainly BELOW my unemployment benefits I had been drawing for a couple of weeks!

It was a few months before I got ANY raise, and it was just a nickel...and another year or so before I got another raise!!

I had friends who flipped burgers or made pizzas at fast food joints who were making alot more than I was, too!...PLUS they got a free meal each day out of the deal!!

But I guarantee you one damned thing, the speaker cabinets that were built by ME were built well!! Unlike ANYBODY ELSE who was building them while I was there(and they ALL made more money than I did!), I NEVER had a SINGLE ONE returned to me for a problem that was MY FAULT!!! And nobody else there could build as many of what I built in a day as I could, either!!...day after day...week after week!!

Just something for you folks to ponder, as you listen to something that I MAY HAVE BUILT back then for $hit hourly wages!

[forresthump2]

Is T Bone going to state his solution or only ***** about it??? What raise the Minimum Wage which raise our prices and INCREASES unemployment. Unionize Min Wage workers which does the same?

It IS a fair market if the workers are taking those jobs with that pay. If it wasn't fair then there would be no workers there in the first place. The question is does the COMPANY want to pay higher wages for better workers. If they don't then you do get what you pay for and vote with your own dollars.

But I do believe when once you take a job you should try and be the best that you can be. But the point is Its between the workers and the company and not for the GOV or Unions to interfere with. Anybody with sense knows that anything the GOV or Unions mess with creates economic inefficiency. This is a capaitalistic economy as much as those like T Bone want it to be a Socialistic or Communistic one. Love it or move to Cuba. LOL

[lovedrummin]

Yeah, the Wendy's In my area leaves alot to be desired in the friendly service dept. Not only that it seems that 50% of the time they are out of the item I was trying to order. How can a fast food chain be out of stock that often? And (while I'm venting) the combo meals regular chicken sandwich combo & spicy chicken sandwich combo are the same price, but order the spicy chicken alone and it's 50 cents more than the regular chicken alone. Now I can afford the 50 cents but the priciple of this irks me. I question it & get told that it's a special item. What's so x@*%~> special about it? It's the same damned piece of chicken - combo or not!

OK, now for Burger King (my favorite fast food burger). Remember how you used to be able to "have it yor way"? What the heck is so hard to understand about the word "plain"? Is it because they don't have a "plain" button on the register or a large glossy photo of a naked burger to go by? I no longer use their drive-thru and I always check my order before I leave the building in hopes of having it "my way".

Thanks guys. I feel better now. BTW Did I mention Popeye's? Just kidding!

[TBrennan]

Forrest---Solution? I'm not offering one just explaining the problem. And I'm not going to cry when I get lousy service at a place where I pay cheap. If I want good service I expect to pay for it and I'm willing to do so. Evidently others here aren't.

In case you haven't noticed a union IS the workers who belong to it, it's not an outside force. Workers form and join unions as an expression of their freedom and intention to bargain collectively, you want to take people's freedom away?

Of course government and unions became involved in the economy because left to their own devices businessmen formed cartels and trusts that ruined competition and screwed both the workers and consumers. Have you forgotten that? Or perhaps you never knew, I don't expect your knowledge of your nation's history is very good.

[minn_male42]

tbrennan,

so...in your first job...when you were young you did a lousy job and didn't care about how you performed your job.....just because you were receiving low pay?????......or did you do a good job???...even though you were receiving minimum wage or close to minimum wage???

[GooseChaser]

----------------

On 12/21/2002 4:13:58 PM lovedrummin wrote:

the combo meals regular chicken sandwich combo & spicy chicken sandwich combo are the same price, but order the spicy chicken alone and it's 50 cents more than the regular chicken alone. Now I can afford the 50 cents but the priciple of this irks me. I question it & get told that it's a special item. What's so x@*%~> special about it? It's the same damned piece of chicken - combo or not!

----------------

combos are deals that have multiple of goods for less money then buying them individually. I think u are looking at it the wrong way, would u rather pay 50 cents more for that spicy chicken combo? I liked McDonald as a kid moved to burger king at pre-teen and now Wendy's. after eating certain amount of particular fast food, I think the chemicals get to me. yea, just tonight I went for chicken filet(I used to order spicy but it got to me ) u know it when u feel sickened and feeling of vomit creeps up at a catch of its scent along with a mild headache I would rather do away with fast food and get some light tuna rolls with soup from a sushi restaurant but it's too little for the buck. I used to love it when my bro worked there and I got a special deal hehe

the quality of final product and service seem to vary greatly according to the neighborhood in which the restaurant resides. yeah my wendy's mixed some of the orders from time to time but I once got a quadruple cheese burger at wendy's and I'll forgive them for this

yeah, one would expect poor service at a fast food restaurant these days where many just do not takes pride in their work. but it's still no excuse since it's not as if we've always come to expect such logic; "lousy service at a place where I pay cheap." too bad, the charm of old fashion pride ain't coming back anytime soon where every book, shoes, furniture, record, electronic, or the super stores with all the previously mentioned goods are corporated. and fake smiles at the door of BB do not count. unless u go to a fancy restraurant where face time and the mood is one third of the business or a very very specialized stores even if corporated.

[lovedrummin]

A buddy and I just got back from Hooters where I had the fried fish filet sandwhich. I cook a better burger than them. But hey, I was there for the ambiance anyway. Burgers, buns, beer and oldies rock "n" roll and oh yeah those Hooters. What more can a guy ask for? So much for little Wendy - shoulda seen little (did I say little?) Jennifer.

[TBrennan]

Minn---I did a good job but I don't expect everyone to react like I do. I'm tolerant of those not as good as I am. :-) My oldest son didn't work too hard at the low paying jobs he had after high school. But when he got in the Boilermaker's apprenticeship and started making good money he got REAL dedicated and started working like a set of twins. he is a go-to guy.

Minn my friend, the sh*tbums and deadbeats are always with us, in any endeavor. That's just the way of things. I've run some big jobs, sometimes with over 100 Boilermakers working for me and there's always some deadbeats. The thing to do is put them where they do you some good, use them as helpers, runners and holewatches. I've never fired a guy, I can always get some use from a guy.

Ranger was correct to a great extent in blaming stupid and apathetic management. I've gotten a good days work from people who give very few pushers a good day. You gotta use a little imagination, you gotta think about people and treat them as individuals, then they respond. Get them rolling and then get out of the way, go drink coffee and read the paper and let the men work. This works every time.I should write a Goddam book on motivating people in the Building Trades.

[GooseChaser]

----------------

On 12/21/2002 1:16:32 AM TBrennan wrote:

you want to believe that talent chases money and that money is needed to get talent if the talent is you but at the same time you want to believe that you can hire someone else's talent on the cheap.

----------------

when did courteous conduct become a talent to sell? being knowledgable and skilled are talents, not one's willingness to appreciate work and deal with ppl with kindness and consideration. yeah, most ppl can fake it(not well tho) and especially in the service industry, it has unfortunately become a commodity that fits the logic of "price/quality of service" ratio however the list of other factors. nevertheless, are we so shallow and hierarchical in one's usefulness to oneself thus to the society in this free trade world that a person's civility ammounts to his/her wage? one CAN expect lousy service from such places "out of experience" but what one CANNOT do is also giving oneself to the same value system where ur pay determines who u are as a human being. it sounds as if u are saying, "hey, in logic, I'd work like that too if I got paid sh*t" if so, I don't quite know what to say. but if u do not let that logic rule u, ask urself if price/service logic is empirical and applicable to anyone else on this planet. after cutting all the sh*t(economic theories, concepts, principle some english guy wrote a long time ago) if u are willing to live up to urself and nothing else, that makes one, and I try too, and that make two.

lol

maybe I am just being naive but all this over a order of burger, fries, and soda lol

[minn_male42]

tbrennan,

EXACTLY what i was saying...there are good workers out there and are some total losers...unfortunately, many of the younger generation are not being told to do it right!!!!...the managers are the fault...(agreeing with you here)...if the workers don't do it right, then correct their behaviors or get rid of them...

again unfortunately, i feel that this situation exists in many companies...not only in "entry-level" job markets....most of us can probably identify one or two (or more) totally useless co-workers who should really be fired but management doesn't have the knowledge or the balls to fire them....

[BBB]

I never have problem ordering from my local Chinese fast food restaurant. I can just drive up and order

4 egg rolls, 2 orders of Barbecue Spare Ribs, 1 egg drop and 2 Wonton Soups,2 Stir Fried Beef with Cashew Nuts,1 Hot Spicy Chicken ,1 stir fried Sweet & Sour Mixed Vegetable,2 Chicken Chop Sueys, 1 shrimp and 2 Roast Pork Egg Foo-Yungs, 2 Beef Chow Meins, 3 Chicken Fried Rice, 2 Lobster Chop Sueys, 1 Chicken Moo Goo Gai Pan,2 Shrimp and Broccoli, 4 Vegetable Chow Meins, 1 General Tsos chicken, 1 Butterfly Shrimp with Bacon, 1 Roasted Duck with Hot Orange Sauce, 4 Beef and Shrimp Lo Meins and a Pu-Pu platter for four with extra mustard. No fortune cookies please. And all they ever say is And theeeeen ?..

[HDBRbuilder]

I believe one of the main reasons things are the way they are now, is because our youth are not instilled with certain values anymore.

Some of these are just common societal expectations that our youth no longer deem a necessity, such as a simple "yes, sir", or "yes ma'am", instead of a "yep" or a "nope." ...or even MUCH worse!!

Another problem I hear all too often is "Kids today don't want a JOB, they want a POSITION." Which, sadly, in many cases is pretty obvious.

Something has gone awry, and needs to be fixed with a reality check, and it needs to be done NOW!! For almost a decade, this country has been in an economic boom, with the job market being wide-open, but that is already history, as the economic pendulum swings in the other direction(as it ALWAYS does!)...and these half-arsed attitudes many employees have toward the quality of work they do being based upon how much they are being paid is gonna leave them out in the cold with NO DAMNED JOB....and no way to get another one, if they don't change them, and FAST!

On the other hand, it is a pretty sorry state of affairs when, during this past almost decade-long period of positive economic growth in this country, the minimum wage (which NOBODY can survive on!!) was only increased by less than 15%, after a previous lag of over TWELVE YEARS with NO increase in it AT ALL...while during the same time frame, the average corporate honcho salary increased by OVER 5,000%!! All of this while the average prices for "necessary" consumer goods increased by a margin of 40% during this period!!

Either way you look at it, it is a "Catch-22" situation. Corporate doesn't want to pay higher wages to the blue-collar, blue-collar doesn't want to work for wages they can't survive on. But SOMETHING HAS TO HAPPEN SOMEWHERE!!

Things are already tightening up in this country...have been for almost two years now...times are gonna be hard on lots of folks soon...they already are for many. And with this upcoming possibility of conflict, they aren't gonna get any better, unless you have a job making ammunition!!

It is already past time for those who have a crappy job attitude to give themselves a reality check, they just don't realize it yet!

[Malcolm]

Sometimes, even management cannot do a thing about service. The attitudes are just so ingrained in the labor pool in some areas there is no solution. Its been like this for at least 20 years and isn't getting any better. Many years ago, I stopped at a McDonalds store in Oakland, California. There was a line out the front door. I almost decided to go elsewhere. But the line looked like it was moving and the nearest alternative was far enough away that I decided to chance it. 20 minutes later I got to the counter. It was almost noon, and they had just managed to turn the grill around from breakfast to lunch. The guy who took my order was a troubleshooter sent by corporate to turn the store around. As he filled my order I managed to get a little info out of him. Turns out he was 3 people short. One called in sick. The other two just didn't show up. Next time I felt like McDonalds, I went to another store. No lines, lots of folks behind the counter. Unfortunately, none of them seemed interested in taking my order. They were all just talking to each other about things not job related. It was like I wasn't there. I was beginning to think I was on the receiving end of reverse discrimination. I am white. All the workers were black. Finally, someone grudginly took my order. After a longer than normal wait, my food showed up. While I was waiting, I noticed that the workers treated the black customers the same as me. So it wasn't a case of discrimination, just lousy work ethic. At either of these stores, my guess is that management could have fired the entire crew, replaced it with another one, and been right back in the same situation the next day.

Luckily, where I live now, all the fast food stores seem to have good service: fast, accurate and polite. The one Burger King that had lousy service went out of business, then burned down. It is rebuilt now and service is good.