cornwaller Posted December 24, 2002 Share Posted December 24, 2002 This is intended to be a continuation of a previous thread regarding: 'the larger the driver the lower the sound'--sort of. DRBILL had some very profound things to say and therefore I was compelled to start this new topic. Like all posts this will probably morf into something more because of controversy. ASSUMING WE ALL HAVE KHORNS AND A OPTIMAL SETUP, DO WE NEED A SUBWOOFER FOR HT AND IF SO WHY? Gentlemen...start your engines! Cornwaller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksdad Posted December 24, 2002 Share Posted December 24, 2002 i only have a ksw 12, since i got my corns i really do not even see the reason for that, except for ht Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted December 24, 2002 Share Posted December 24, 2002 I suggest you read the FAQ at the SVS website and then tell us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornwaller Posted December 24, 2002 Author Share Posted December 24, 2002 Malcom, Com'on if I wanted the knowlege of the SVS FAQ I would've started there. I would rather get a 'users' opinion. I never take anything for granted--niether should you. Cornwaller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 I don't think you need one for music, unless you just like to listen to super bass cd's... movies, and games... yeah, get a sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 I say get one. even KHorns would fail on the low parts in alot of music. Theres more to going low than just going to 30 hz. The question is, could Khorns play 30 hz with the authority that an SVS, Velodyne, or RSW-15 could? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 If I had Klipschorns I would just listen to music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 Merry Christmas Everyone! I just got done playing Santa Claus - the presents are all wrapped and under the tree - so I thought I'd unwind here for awhile before trying to get a couple of hours of sleep prior to the kidz draggin' my tired arse out of bed in a few hours. Oh yeah - subs with k-horns. My horns in my room go down solid to 30hz. (well, down 3-4 db) I can crank up Nelly and good golly, I just can't imagine more clean, slammin' bass, BUT OTH, I'm not gettin' the pant leg flappin', chest rattlin' bass a good sub or two might provide. But I don't know if I really want that. I mean, is that musical? Or is it just a distraction? I suspect that If I had it, I wouldn't want to give it up, but how many CD's have much down below 30hz anyway? I don't know the answer to that one either. I suppose in a perfect world where money grew in klipschorns, I'd have me a couple of RSW-15's in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 There is very little fundamental musical content below about 60 hz. There are however a fair amount of sub -harmonics that may be more felt than heard. Presumably a subwoofer's ability to move a lot of air in the region below 100 hz. may enhance that impact. The question becomes one of at what point does this bass augmentation become a distortion of the original performance ? For HT purposes exaggeration of the very lowest notes in explosions etc. is generally seen as a bonus and not really a distortion in that not even the most ferocious system can fully replicate the full sonic experience of being way too close to a grenade explosion for example (never been there thankfully but some years ago I read an article which mentioned tests that indicated that a concussion grenade can create SPLs in excess of 150 db. in a small space and cause instantaneous hearing loss). Boosting the bottommost notes excessively may be of value if applied judiciously but I suspect that too many people have their subs set too loudly for my taste - Did Beethoven really intend to crack windows ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 I only use my subs durring HT. For listening, the Khorns are perfect all by themselves. Especailly if your room is optimal, and you have a good recording, the imaging is absolutely amazing. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasN00b Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 you play nelly..... on khorns.... ARE YOU STONED?!?! dear god give those to me i'll take safe care of them... i wont desicrate them as you have! grrrrrrrrr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 i agree...i only use my sub for home theatre...my klf30's matched with my carver m400t almost has too much bass...(almost)...on every kind of music that i throw at it...classical, jazz, pop, and 70's rock russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted December 25, 2002 Share Posted December 25, 2002 OK, IMHO you need a good sub for HT even with Klipschorns. There are many movies with significant low frequency content, even as low as 10 Hz. The waterfall graphs of the low frequency content of the movies on the SVS site show this clearly. And experience confirms that a good sub does indeed enhance the viewing experience. OTOH for most music you don't need a sub with Klipschorns because most instruments just don't play below what it can reproduce. There are exceptions, of course, like long organ pipes and some synthesizer music. FWIW even Heresys will reproduce most music just fine without a sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstanton8 Posted December 26, 2002 Share Posted December 26, 2002 I love my K-horns but I also like the extra low-end help added by my KSW-15 and Yamaha YST-80s. I get the sense of a much "fuller" sound for both music and HT. IF they're dialed in right. I am in the process of upgrading my rig with a custom sub made by Acoustic Visions, as I have yet to be able to reach that point at which I can say "There's just too damn much bass here..." I'm firmly entrenched in the "bass-needs-to-be-felt-as-well-as-heard" camp. Of course the K-horns sound great by themselves for both HT and music, it's just that for my listening tastes they're complemented by the addition of subwoofers. When I can get to that point where's "too much bass" or when the overall sonic effect begins to be "unbalanced", that's when I would turn the subwoofer down some or "recalibrate". I have the adjustable crossovers on my subs set fairly low, with their volumes pegged so that they're running somewhere around a 50-70 Hz cutoff point. Any higher than that and things start getting boomy and the subs' volumes have to be turned down. I think that boomy region is probably where the sub lows overlap the K-horn lows (and is to be avoided). PS I'm offering a $35 reward to the first person who can trouble-shoot my LFE to outboard amp connection problem I'm having...(see Technical Questions or Powered Subwoofer Forum)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 26, 2002 Share Posted December 26, 2002 Yes, even with the mighty Klipsch horn, one needs an active powered subwoofer for HT. The optimally setup Khorn is powered by a delicate flea-powered tube amplifier and does not have the oodles of solid state horsepower required to accurately reproduce the special effects of modern movies. One needs something like two RSW woofers, one for each channel, to get the required HT punch. I have heard the hard-hitting Pass X250 with both dual SVS Ultra tubes and Klipsch KSW200s on B&W 803s whilst playing U-571 and Matrix! The affect was astonishing. And no, I do not use my KSW200 for music with the big old horns either, in fact, even the LF-10 barely helps out, but if you ever listen to Sade's latest disc, you know that some help is required, even with music... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRBILL Posted December 26, 2002 Share Posted December 26, 2002 How many times did Paul say it? "You can't make what you can't measure, because you don't know when you have got it made." But in all truth, when it comes to audible perception, some things are very hard to measure. In psychology, there is the concept of "gestalt" --phenomena so integrated as to constitute a functional unit with properties not derivable from its parts in summation. That's an academic way of saying that our minds "fill in the gaps". Sure, Klipschorns fall off precipitously below 30 or so Hz. But they don't just stop there. There is still enough energy radiated in the octave below that to cause a candle to flicker or to make a wall vibrate to the touch of fingers. And I might point out that the human ear follows about the same response curve as Klipschorns. In the case of a 32' organ pipe at low CCCC, the fundamental is c. 16 Hz. If you were standing in the midst of a cathedral or recital hall and such a note were sounded, you would not "hear" the fundamental. You might feel it in your chest. But from the rich harmonic structure or the note, your mind would fill in the fundamental through "gestalt". The same is true if you hear this same note faithfully produced through Klipschorns. There might be just the slightest suggestion of the fundamental. But because the harmonic structure is so faithfully reproduced by the K's, your "gestalt" will fill in the gaps. In our bedroom we have six Klipsch speakers for "theater sound". I seldom hear much fundamental from the 15" sub. It likes to favor the octave as an exaggeration. That's OK. The dinosaurs still stomp around convincingly. It still tricks the ears and the windows rattle. But is it hardly a faithful reproduction of anything but the sound engineer's fancy. And notice how quickly the ear tires and how the wife insists that you turn the damned thing down. In summation, I wouldn't consider for a second adding subs to K's. Enjoy the pristine clarity. Your mind will fill in the gaps. Wont it be fun to see where this thread goes! Check out MATCHED WOOFERS. I wish you a happy new year. Make many friends and enough money to feed the Klipsch habit! FATHER BILL+ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornwaller Posted December 26, 2002 Author Share Posted December 26, 2002 DRBILL, I'm sure glad you didn't die in Hope...and I have been waiting for you to 'chime-in' on this one. You raised some points that I truly agree with. Particularly the human ear fundamentals and the sound preception visa vi gestault. You are also quite correct in characterising the unnatural sounds (as I put it engineering whims). But the sounds are there on the track so they must be reproduced--and leave it to the 'other engineers' to do just that. Next time I post after you I'll just write "ditto to what he said"! I do see the need for a sub (sounds as if I'm capitulating) and I have always tried to buy speakers that were 'loaded' for the lower waves since the first Star Wars. What I hate though is leaving a theater with my ears ringing. There is a big difference between reproduction and internal bleeding caused by an assult of DB's. As it seems the masses are trying to emulate the theater experience rather than the sound track. That's my story and I'm stick'n to it, Cornwaller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted December 26, 2002 Share Posted December 26, 2002 "That's my story and I'm stick'n to it," You may have the quote a tad twisted - What Stan Laurel of Laurel and Hardy fame actually said was: "That's our story and we're stuck with it!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted December 26, 2002 Share Posted December 26, 2002 ---------------- On 12/25/2002 10:32:18 AM JasN00b wrote: you play nelly..... on khorns.... ARE YOU STONED?!?! dear god give those to me i'll take safe care of them... i wont desicrate them as you have! grrrrrrrrr ---------------- HAHAHAHAHA-YES my man! Have you ever HEARD Nelly's CD, "Country Grammar"? If you haven't, then don't knock it. IT IS GRRRRRRRRR-eat! And I do not consider myself a rap fan at all. But this is just good music VERY well recorded. The bass is killer. Open your ears, feel the joy / Be a country rockin', classical and jazz rappin boy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subegt Posted December 27, 2002 Share Posted December 27, 2002 I own LaScalas and a KSW100. For HT I think a sub is essential. The enjoyment comes from feeling the low frequecies. Unfortunately, the 100 is to small for my HT and just adds mud to the room when playing music. I found these sites with more information about musical frequencies: http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/sound/rca01-5.htm http://www.bcpl.net/~musicman/freqchrt.htm I hope these help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.