ODS123 Posted August 2, 2022 Share Posted August 2, 2022 9 hours ago, John Warren said: Loudspeaker Enclosures MDF, Particle Board, Plywood enclosures are gone (thank goodness!). The top tier suppliers today have transitioned to composite structures including mineral casting, structural laminates and, of course, Aluminum plate. The enclosures materials are where the engineering is most intense and where the distinctions will be made. The small speaker below, made by Kroma (a German supplier) was an example of what a mineral cast enclosure provides. $16k/pr with stands, this little speaker was outstanding. The woofer surround is specifically designed to break-up standing waves that ripple along the cone. This wasn't my favorite at the show, it was the one I was most impressed with. Great reproduction at very high volumes. Upper mids and HF handled by the AMT. Many suppliers are transitioning to the AMT as well. Don't agree. My CW III are made from MDF and sound as hollow as a shoebox when you knock on them. ...As do the latest iteration of LaScalas and Klipschorns. Yet these three speakers sound much better to my ears than many speakers I have heard that have enclosures that are as solid as granite. ..Some composite, some aluminum. IMHO, enclosure integrity needs to meet a certain minimum, but beyond that it become superfluous. My Vandersteen 3A sigs and Paradigm S8 V2's felt like bricks when you knocked on them. ..Yet I don't like them nearly as much as my CW's. ..So there's gotta be more to speaker design than just enclosure rigidity. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted August 2, 2022 Share Posted August 2, 2022 48 minutes ago, ODS123 said: ..So there's gotta be more to speaker design than just enclosure rigidity. Do ya think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelwjones Posted August 2, 2022 Share Posted August 2, 2022 11 hours ago, John Warren said: Loudspeaker Enclosures MDF, Particle Board, Plywood enclosures are gone (thank goodness!). The top tier suppliers today have transitioned to composite structures including mineral casting, structural laminates and, of course, Aluminum plate. The enclosures materials are where the engineering is most intense and where the distinctions will be made. My take on "top tier" are those commanding 75% margins from doctors, lawyers and hedge fund bros for their unique "distinctions." Piega and T+A, very exclusive Swiss & German builders respectively, have been building crappy sounding speakers in aluminum enclosures for years. I don't see a mineral cast Les Paul from Gibson on the horizon. Except for some very special resonator guitars, wood rules in nearly all stringed/vibrating instruments. Material is not the issue; its the synergy of all the components that matters. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelwjones Posted August 2, 2022 Share Posted August 2, 2022 20 minutes ago, michaelwjones said: ...wood rules in nearly all stringed/vibrating instruments. Material is not the issue; its the synergy of all the components that matters. And in my Harbeths, the cabinetry is 12mm plywood. Its resonance is part of the design of the sound of the speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted August 3, 2022 Author Share Posted August 3, 2022 LOUDSPEAKER ENCLOSURES (CONT.) The show was not crowded, and we spent well over 30 min in many of the rooms we visited, sitting in the "sweet spot". There were a number of 2-way systems based on the AMT which I found to be excellent reproducers. Incorporating the self-damping characteristics of composite enclosures, 8 and 10" woofers are capable of high volume, articulate bass output well down to the lows in a moderately large listening room. My favorite? The Fink Team "Borg". In the hotel room, with some drapes and bass traps here and there I found this system to be excellent sounding. They're in the mid $30k range. The enclosure is an engineered laminate. They also make a system based on a 15" woofer which is on display at the dealer here in Boston. Website for this system is interesting read with a few white papers that show what's going on inside the box. Borg – Fink Team 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted August 3, 2022 Share Posted August 3, 2022 1 hour ago, John Warren said: LOUDSPEAKER ENCLOSURES (CONT.) The show was not crowded, and we spent well over 30 min in many of the rooms we visited, sitting in the "sweet spot". There were a number of 2-way systems based on the AMT which I found to be excellent reproducers. ... Website for this system is interesting read with a few white papers that show what's going on inside the box. Borg – Fink Team Huh?? They lost me with this "Typical loudspeaker cabinets have pronounced structural resonances which are very audible and reduce the speaker’s ‘signal-to-noise ratio’" Speaker S/N ratio?? Yes, resonances need to be kept below the threshold of audibility. ..But solving the problem does not necessitate an inordinately complex cabinet design. But since this is high-end audio - where fetishizing power cords, speaker cables, turntable plinth thickness, etc.. looms large - I'm not surprised by claims that it does. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted September 21, 2022 Author Share Posted September 21, 2022 On 8/2/2022 at 3:24 PM, ODS123 said: Don't agree. IMHO, enclosure integrity needs to meet a certain minimum, but beyond that it become superfluous. At the risk of burdening you with finding another way to disagree with me, I shall agree with you. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted September 24, 2022 Share Posted September 24, 2022 On 9/21/2022 at 6:02 AM, John Warren said: At the risk of burdening you with finding another way to disagree with me, I shall agree with you. So explain the popularity of Klipsch Heritage speakers despite the fact that their enclosures are relatively un-braced. ...They sound as hollow as shoeboxes when you rap on them. So why do they sound so good in spite of this?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted September 24, 2022 Share Posted September 24, 2022 In the case of the La Scala II, the stiffer 1” MDF cabinets do reduce resonances and do improve the bass response, even if they still don’t sound like solid blocks of wood when you knock on them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter P. Posted September 24, 2022 Share Posted September 24, 2022 11 hours ago, ODS123 said: So explain the popularity of Klipsch Heritage speakers despite the fact that their enclosures are relatively un-braced. ...They sound as hollow as shoeboxes when you rap on them. So why do they sound so good in spite of this?? Because even if the cabinet IS resonating, it's at an inaudible level. Just because you can put your hand on the cabinet and feel it vibrating doesn't mean you can hear it. The Heritage series speakers are popular because they just WORK. I'm sure Paul Klipsch would roll his eyes, and flip around his Bullshit Button if he heard some of the technobabble justifying bracing, special woods, etal. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted October 8, 2022 Author Share Posted October 8, 2022 On 9/23/2022 at 8:10 PM, ODS123 said: So explain the popularity of Klipsch Heritage speakers despite the fact that their enclosures are relatively un-braced. I'll leave that to you given you are projecting yourself as an expert. On 9/23/2022 at 8:10 PM, ODS123 said: So why do they sound so good in spite of this?? Never thought they sounded "so good". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted October 8, 2022 Share Posted October 8, 2022 Knock on wood, a favorite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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