mobile homeless Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Sounds logical to me. I think you have hit on it! kh ps- I told you to stop calling collect! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 That can not be all you have to say !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invidiosulus Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 I think that zip cord comment Marvel made was directed mainly at me. The reason I say this is because Marvel just happens to be my father. It was kind of a tease about upgrading because I was able to get a pair of klipsch before he did. And yes he really does use zip cord, but it sounds fairly good, or maybe I should say his JBL 4311 monitors do. Peace, Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Thanks NOS, You just caused me to understand for the first time what this speaker wire debate is all about; utilizing wire to effect a signature on the end sound. It had never occurred to me (largely because of how they frame the argument) how people could possibly believe migrating from one brand of 12 gauge wire to another brand of 12 gauge wire could improve the sound of their system. The whole intent actually appears to be 'masking' the sound. If, like Mobile, we view wire as another component, then it makes sense that given a particular system and particular user's tastes, wire that limited the highs or altered the bass as delivered from the component would be 'better' compared to one that effected a different signature. Mileage would obviously vary and the selection of a particular speaker wire would be very much a personal decision where no suggestions would be particularly relevant to another user unless they shared the same hearing, tastes and had the same system setup. That begs the question of intent? This whole pursuit to me seems to be to get as close to the sound the performer intended and to me that means a system that effects as small a signature on the sound as possible. One could view the use of speaker wire to impact the sound as analogous to using tone controls or one of those nifty $79 graphic equalizers. PS. MH, so that you are not "shamelessly promoting" the Pantheon, could you email me some additional pictures, internal shots if you have them, as well as more detail on WHAT makes it so good in your opinion. Thanks. PSS. NOS, could you email or PM me some info on the basics and/or pricing of doing some 'clean up', 'bringing back to spec', or what have you to an Eico HF81. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 My response above was a bit tongue in cheek but ole Craig and I have gone around and around here. Until you get to hear what a great cable does and how drastic it can OPEN UP the sound increasing soundstage, detail, extension, clarity, then it's hard to make comments. We talked the other day and I came to the conclusion that I wish some of these people lived nearby to just hear some of the things I am referring to. As for the Pantheon gear, willdo. BTW, did you see Craig's site? Click on his signature pic. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopar dave Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 hey mobile homeless, not to cause trouble with this cable debate but, i was thinking of rewiring my cornwalls with analysis clear oval to see if it smoothens out the k57. do you think it would be to the good or bad? they currently have the silver zip cord with B network. dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 12, 2003 Author Share Posted January 12, 2003 How can two 12 gauge cables sound different? http://www.analysis-plus.com/Pages/thedesign.htm http://www.cardas.com/insights/index.html Dave -- I have a feeling that is an excellent cable. As a matter of fact, I emailed Analysis-Plus about 5 hours ago asking if that cable is available in bulk. At some point, I'm going to give both the AP Oval 12, and the Cardas Twin-link a whirl in my system. You might want to damp that squawker a little with some rope caulk. Go from the front of the lens back about a third of the way. No cable will do much to squelch those resonances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 "Can one be this stubborn to think that all these "foolhardy" audioboons aren't hearing anything but their own pitter-patter imaginations run amok like a slinky down a doublewide crawlspace companionway?" Jeez, Kelly, I'm going to have to order than memory upgrade for my Pilot tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopar dave Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 deang, yes the analysis wire is available in bulk. i live in flint MI and the local audio dealer has it for $3.50/ft. for clear oval. not sure how much per roll. dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Dave, I live in Flint area also ! Do we know each other ? I see by your handle your a Mopar guy ! I'm a kind of semi retired Drag racer myself . Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curmudgeon Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Having owned Klipsh speakers of various types over the years I didn't think much of overpriced "audio jewelry" type speaker wire. I recognized early on the need for good quality shielded interconnects between components but it always seemed the Klipsch speakers weren't as sensitive to wire types as other brands. Perhaps high sensitivity and stable impedance are factors. I swapped out different types and gauge sizes on my Cornwall's and Klipschorn's only to find (like MH said) that some wires types made them worse. On the Klipschorn's a good quality copper low to medium priced wire seems to bring out 99% of their capability, the other 1% I haven't found yet. The last wire I tried on them was an Audioquest Granite which didn't seem to do much at all. The Klipschorns are fed via a McIntosh C22 tube pre & MC275 tube amp, Nakamichi Dragon CD/DAC, & Linn LP12/Lingo/Ittok LVII turntable. Since the tube components and Khorns were designed before really good wire was available they are likely less sensitive to wires than modern stuff is. HOWEVER, on my other system the AQ Granite made a noticeable difference to the better. This system currently consists of B&W CDM-9NT's driven by an Aragon Soundstage, Palladium II monoblocks, Rega Planet CD, and a VPI Aries Scout / Rega RB900 turntable. The previous speaker wire was the same as I was using on the Khorns but the AQ Granite definitely opened up the sound stage a bit, improved the vocals, and seems to have helped bass response on the B&W's. With this being a revealing, high-powered solid state system and the B&W's being power-hungry (and a bit forward) the wire apparently can effect more obvious changes in sound. Mostly, wire changes are going to be very dependent on front end equipment and speaker brands, el cheapo wire could hold a lot of systems back but spending hundreds or thousands on wire may not do jack. In my opinion if wiring comes in a high-grade wooden presentation box you're probably getting screwed somewhere. High-end "power cords" are something I'm a major skeptic on, snake oil seems to apply directly here. What we all need is a computer database that you could input component and speakers into to receive appropriate interconnect and speaker wire recommendations. There's way too many choices out there and the stuff is too damned expensive to experiment with. It's a shame the component manufacturers seem unwilling to help with recommendations (unless its their own wire), because not everyone has access to a dealer that will let people "try out" wiring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Curmudgeon, your answer to the wire database is at fatwyre.com or The Cable Company. They let you try cables from a huge database of designs. You get them for a period of time to compare and you get ALL your money back minus %15 that will go toward a purchase from them in either cable or their other products. It's a GREAT source and I have used it several times since the 80s. You get a %5 discount if you write a review of the cable and what gear you had it with. They keep a database of all the wire they sell and what gear the people who are happy pair it up with. I have contributed myself to the wire datebase. The last time I tried five different speaker cabls to compare in my own system. And the wire is broken in, another plus. I have not gone through them in six years or so but believe they are still running. I ended up getting wire locally but put the money towards a new cartridge last time. They have good prices and carry over 60 brands of IC, speaker, digital, etc. The also SELL THEIR DEMOS for a deal. kh http://fatwyre.com/masterlist.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 "What happened to curiosity? I must be coming from outer space here in that I love trying things that might add to my enjoyment of my system, especially when had on the cheap." Indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curmudgeon Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 ---------------- On 1/13/2003 12:08:17 AM mobile homeless wrote: Curmudgeon, your answer to the wire database is at fatwyre.com or The Cable Company http://fatwyre.com/masterlist.html ---------------- Mobile, Thanks for the info on The Cable Co., I'll give them a try the next time I need cabling. I'll go through their database for the reviews, I'm very curious to see what matches up with what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 All very interesting...Its good to see that few have been swayed in their opinions in what must be one of the most discussed topics in this forum. I admit to climbing the cable tree and IMO, both sides of the debate have merit. What I've been able to gather from my rather limited experience is that everyone's experience is limited to the cables they've auditioned in their system and all cables perform the same task in passing the signal to the next component and each does so with marginal variations that effect that signal in a way that most folks can easily hear. I feel all the confusion and debate arises from the purpose of cables. Some argue that - bottom line, its an electrical connection - nothing more or less and given the characteristics of the audio signal, any conductive material can do the job - period. Others look to the way that the signal is passed and therein lies the magic. I submit that with all the variables involved in the audio chain; room size and resonance, SS and tubed gear and their respective designs and components, and speaker size and type - cables certainly play an intergral role. I also think that because of these variables, there is no ultimate cable or wire for all systems. I suggest that cables be used to "mix" and equalize components together and with the room. For example, I tried all silver in my system and found it fast and dynamic but also too lean. By changing out wires and cables, I found a pleasing combination by changing the silver to copper ICs (Cardas) in the DAC and copper speaker wire (AlphaCore). This seemed to work best for me but I'd never think it'd be a universal set up. I also rewired my SET amp with silver only to return to copper after a few months because I liked the fuller sound six9 copper offered. Sure I tried zip and to some extent, magnet wire and it would be reasonable to think that they would sound fine in some systems - they just didn't do it for me. Finally, I've never heard anyone declare that they have put together a system that exactly duplicates the listening experience of a symphony, recital, rock concert, jazz club, etc. so all you can hope for in audio systems is an imperfect illusion, compromised by your choices in equipment and of course, your wallet. Everyone must decide for themselves how best to recreate the illusion within their own criteria and limitations. Wires and cables do make a difference but you must determine for yourself just how much trouble and expense your willing to go to satisfy your audio desires. Its my opinion and I'm sticking to it...unless someone comes up with something more interesting. Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopar dave Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 hi nos, the only craig i know that has a mopar, would be craig jonhson that owns and operates stereo center on miller road. maybe you have seen my car around or at shows, 67 barracuda notchback viper blue with 340 and 4 speed. do you still have a car? back to the wire debate. does anyone else have an opinion on rewiring cornwalls with analysis clear oval? later dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiohead Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Craig, Could you also send me an email or PM regarding the options available when bringing an HF-81 up to snuff? It sounds so good right now I am tempted to just not send it to you; but, due to its age I imagine it is in need of a tune up. I tried checking your new website, which looks outstanding by the way, but I see Kelly and yourself are still putting the final touches on it. RCR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 13, 2003 Author Share Posted January 13, 2003 Great post Bryan. Which Klipsch and SET amp(s) are you using? Dave, the Oval Theater 14 might be better for inside the speaker. I would then use whatever AP cable you wanted on the outside. http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=ANA14B&product_name=Oval%20Theater%2014%20-%20CL-3%20Rated%20Speaker%20Cable%20Bulk%20-%20Per%20Foot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 I dont know if I would opt for Analysis Plus wire inside the speaker per say. PErhaps something more simple. I have found enough varied comments on Analysis Plus cable to make it a bit sketchy to use as in the box wiring. It;s also a pain to work with for soldering to drivers/xover. Any other options you were thinking of? I dont see anything Jbryan said that anyone could really disagree with (except the fact that I do think Wire does make a difference and dont know how others saying it doenst can be correct at same time). Besides the note, it's basically my same take on the matter as well, even down to the silver findings. I have always found Silver to sound a bit lean in my systems although my good buddy loved it with his Cornwalls and Wright Sound gear. Copper sounds slightly more warm and full to me while still being very extended and natural. Some do love silver, however. This same friend brought over Goertz T2 silver IC wire. Although it did well, I actually found my Vampire CCC IC to do better. Still, you must listen to this stuff in your own systems. With SET, I have almost ALWAY preferred simple wire solutions to complex. But the right cable can really make your system sing when you hit on it (taking in your system/matching/room etc). kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 with all the many possiblities for cables to filter in some way I don't understand how people cannot accept that cables can sound different. There are so many factors other than conducivity (which, by the way, silver wins hands down) that can affect sound, why do we accept that Caps, resistors and tubes can all affect sound but not the cables? silly if you ask me...I found absolutely facinating an article in Stereophile not long ago about impedance matching between inputs and outputs of components and the mistmatching affecting sound reproduciton. The author mentioned that some of what we hear between cables is the effect of different behaviors in impedance. It ALL affects the sound. find what works for you and enjoy. tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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