DACS...... ARE WE THERE YET ?

[Bubo]

2 hours ago, RocketFoot said:

I'm confused by the whole DAC thing...do I need a DAC?  I like to stream from the internet to my vintage stereo and I use an iPad Pro or an Alexa Echo Dot device.  Ethier one seems to do a really good job and I suppose they are in theory the same as having a DAC but would a $179 DAC be better?  What about a $1000 DAC?  I'm a little foggy on why I might "need" a DAC?

DAC = Digital to Analog Converter

 

3 basis designs: DS chip sets, Resistor, and FPGA

DS Delta Sigma  is the most common and lowest cost to implement

DS is what most manufacturers use

DS chip sets are on at least 5th gen, so relatively bug free

Resistor is considered to be better, I would have to read up on it to see if there is a coherent tech argument for it, then see if I could hear any difference.

FPGA field programmable gate arrays are programmable chips, they are typically found in industrial controls and weapons systems where speed is everything. They basically replaced custom ASICS application specific integrated circuits.

 

Does a $1,000 DAC sound better than a $200 one ?

maybe or maybe not.

 

For your application, I would go over to the Headfi boards and search your devices for comment threads

DACs are very competitive, there are probably lots of good choices in the $250 range, probably the current sweet spot for price and performance. Likely all DS chip set based from 3-5 chip manufacturers competing for the business.

[Bubo]

14 hours ago, Quad Khorns said:

Seems like someone is playing with ChatGtp ...

 

Quad,

 

What I am attempting to do is stimulate a discussion on DACs; and if their quality is so uniformly good at this time, that any decent DAC is pretty good. So why pay more than the sweet spot. Probably $250 for name brand in this competitive market. Maybe more if it has other products built in like an EQ, pre-amp, blutooth, net server etc.

 

There is still a lot of snake oil in the audio industry, that might confuse someone working with glue all day long.

 

So I had hoped to afford people who don't have a background in electronics, data communications, micro processors, chip design and programming an opportunity to enter the discussion since they are the targets of the snake oil. I'm not the only one the board with a background in electronics.

 

We also have more than a few amateur, and probably a few professional, speaker designers on the board. Some of the designs from the board have found their way into the Klipsch line-up. So I would ask Klipsch to think carefully, before taking down the amateur speaker or Altec discussions. They are not the competition for Klipsch. It appears that most of the users on the board are old curmudgeons, not first time speaker buyers.

 

We have a lot of people in the trades and general contractors, who don't spend their weekends reading EE magazine, but are hunched over the kitchen table reviewing D size drawings for their projects. Who want good sound, but don't want to get ripped off either. Same way I want a good house, but probably won't get a degree in architecture to get a good house.

 

I had hoped someone had recently test driven several DACs and could share their experience;

frequently the test drive reveals more about the car or motorcycle than reading the spec sheet.

 

In the motorcycle example;

the "certain-something" is frame-flex, center of gravity, weight distribution FR tires, engine crank shaft and piston balance at 5,000-12,000 RPM and harmonic vibration, and cam-shaft and valve behavior at high speed,  in a turn all at the same time, combined with suspension damping so the bike doesn't kill you. Ducati got it right. Their engine turns into a fine-tuned gyroscope at high RPMs,  that allows the bike precision tracking and stability at speeds that would normally kill the rider. You place a coin on the engine at 6,000 rpm and it won't vibrate off.

 

The  DS chip set built-in-options may be the reason that one DS DAC sounds subtly different than another DS DAC, perhaps using the same chip set. Any competent EE DAC designer, will look at all of the characteristics and nuance  of the chip set and DAC, before selecting their components and finalizing their design. And still they spend days test driving the designs to see how they handle under various loads, and bumps.

 

EMO's implementation is noteworthy in that they are allowing the user to decide which option/s best suit the listener's preference, there is no uniform set of ears or likes.  Have it your way, audio preference.

 

Before responding, I took a minute to review your other contributions to the forum.

 

The question I would have on gluing or repairing plastic horns is what is the effect on resonance ? And what will it introduce into the sound ? ABS Fiber glass etc.......

 

[Quad Khorns]

Yep, I think I nailed it ...

[Quad Khorns]

This should make it explode - MotoCysz C1

[RickD]

On 3/23/2023 at 7:07 AM, Bubo said:

 

 

Have DACs hit the point where any competent design is pretty good

given that we are on the 4th or 5th gen of DAC chip sets ?

The "best sounding DAC" may be only $100 today.

Can anyone who has been comparison shopping lately tell the difference ?

 

It pains me to say it, but the SONY $35 DVD player I purchased a few years ago

sounds pretty good powering my excellent quality Yamaha MX 600 amp and matching pre amp

running through the same vintage Yamaha EQ with the nice florescent bouncing bars and good SN numbers.

My comment to myself was and is "SONY does it again".

 

I'm guessing that the SONY has a $5 Delta Sigma (guess) mass produced chip set. Does TI make these these?

 

A few years ago, on the Headfi Boards, a group did a DAC bake-off

Maybe 2 generations ago

and found that any $500 DAC sounded pretty good, $250 if it was an EMO (Emotiva). They couldn't discern any noticeable difference. These might be today's $100 DACs with most of the cost in the housing and power supply, not to mention the cardboard box which may cost more than the DAC chip set.

 

Engineering usually makes some improvements, and hundreds of little fixes with each generation. The mass production chip sets usually move in once the kinks are worked out; and, the custom ASICs fade away with the next set of designs.

 

The DAC guys in Boulder Colorado use FPGA for their DAC processors so they can modify and change the software on the fly with their next set of little fixes and improvements. Might be a little faster processing than the chip sets, how fast is fast enough.

 

Likewise, each amp represents a series of design choices and trade offs.

Science, engineering, physics and art aka audio equipment.

Sounds good on paper is different than sounds good.

 

Years ago, I read a Motorcycle Bake Off article on the Superbikes

All current (at the time) road-racing bike riders

There were all of the technical metrics criteria; acceleration, braking, max speed, quarter mile, turns etc etc etc

Japanese bikes took the top 6 or 7 slots.

Ducati (F1 ? ) took I recall #7 slot.

All riders were asked if they could take one bike home for free, which one would they choose    ?

Every rider chose the Ducati, because it was a better bike from the users point of view.

The 1,2,3 finishes at many races bore this out.

At 160 mph in a turn, you are betting your life on the bike in every turn.

 

Last fall, I took a friend shopping for a pistol, his first

He had a finite budget.

The country store salesman in his late 20s was unusually knowledgeable.

There was also the more seasoned and knowledgeable 50 something country guy.

My friend and I had settled on a name brand 2nd tier import in the $500 range.

I asked the 20 something salesman which one "he would bet his life on",

he put the import back in the case

and pulled out a slightly less expensive US made model, "this one"

 

Any version of the Heresy, is another example of this phenomenon

they sound good compared to anything for home use volumes.

Every time I turn on my 1s, I remark to myself they sound great !

Trust your ears, bring your amp  to an audio store and compare DACs. You can spend a couple of hundred or many thousands. I am currently shopping for a new DAC  and the best I've heard so far is the Pro-ject DAC box RS2 at $3000 with optional external PS. This week I am going to listen to LINN's Selekt DSM at over $4k.

 

As a final test I'll whip out the credit card and borrow each unit for a test on my system and see how well it integrates. The RS2 sounds good, but it's been on the market for a few years and I suspect that a new version may be coming. Nice feature of the Linn is that it's upgradeable without replacement.

 

There is a lot to consider when purchasing a DAC. How well is the DAC chip implemented, quality of components used in the construction and the power supply. I've heard good things about the Chinese brands Topping and Gustard. RME DAC-2 has good reviews and does a great job of reproducing quality recordings but it is a bit complicated to learn and I find myself having to compensate with the built in EQ for older recordings which are not of great quality. It has 20 EQ presets but I find that a bit cumbersome. The next best DAC is Chord's Qutest which really doesn't sound much different and it's a thousand more.  Until someone comes up with a Quantum DAC, I think there will always be improvement in design and sound.

 

[RickD]

On 3/24/2023 at 5:13 PM, Bubo said:

DAC = Digital to Analog Converter

 

3 basis designs: DS chip sets, Resistor, and FPGA

DS Delta Sigma  is the most common and lowest cost to implement

DS is what most manufacturers use

DS chip sets are on at least 5th gen, so relatively bug free

Resistor is considered to be better, I would have to read up on it to see if there is a coherent tech argument for it, then see if I could hear any difference.

FPGA field programmable gate arrays are programmable chips, they are typically found in industrial controls and weapons systems where speed is everything. They basically replaced custom ASICS application specific integrated circuits.

 

Does a $1,000 DAC sound better than a $200 one ?

maybe or maybe not.

 

For your application, I would go over to the Headfi boards and search your devices for comment threads

DACs are very competitive, there are probably lots of good choices in the $250 range, probably the current sweet spot for price and performance. Likely all DS chip set based from 3-5 chip manufacturers competing for the business.

You can buy both  on Amazon $200 and $1000. Buy both and compare, return the one that is lacking.

[rmlowz]

I have a MHDT Havanna DAC here in the listening room in the house. I always wondered about the AKM4499 chip I ordered a Geshelli J2 today for a barn system, we will see.

[KT88]

In my perception, there are two different types of SQ influencing variables in a DAC. One are the ones I get used to quite quickly. If the difference between a $400 to a $5000 DAC were marginal differences...because the more expensive DAC delivers slightly drier bass or is a touch more transparent, for example, I would very likely forget it after three days, both the "advantage of the expensive DAC and the "disadvantage" of the cheaper DAC, much like some interconnect cables.
On the other hand, there are differences that I hear very clearly and where I would miss the better device. I had a Bluesound Node 2i until two years ago. It was ok, but the difference to its successor, the Bluesound Node 2021, is worlds apart. In contrast, the old Node 2i is pleasant on the ear but has so much less timing, dynamics, spatial separation, etc. The difference with low res CD is much greater than with high res recordings. The new Node has a completely different converter structure.

[Bubo]

On 7/28/2023 at 6:57 AM, KT88 said:

In my perception, there are two different types of SQ influencing variables in a DAC. One are the ones I get used to quite quickly. If the difference between a $400 to a $5000 DAC were marginal differences...because the more expensive DAC delivers slightly drier bass or is a touch more transparent, for example, I would very likely forget it after three days, both the "advantage of the expensive DAC and the "disadvantage" of the cheaper DAC, much like some interconnect cables.
On the other hand, there are differences that I hear very clearly and where I would miss the better device. I had a Bluesound Node 2i until two years ago. It was ok, but the difference to its successor, the Bluesound Node 2021, is worlds apart. In contrast, the old Node 2i is pleasant on the ear but has so much less timing, dynamics, spatial separation, etc. The difference with low res CD is much greater than with high res recordings. The new Node has a completely different converter structure.

Bench test

running sine waves through both units

and compare the wave decodes side by side on an oscilloscope

Freq sweep charts would be very cool

[the real Duke Spinner]

Why would one take analog music, convert it to digits And then spend more money to go back to analog ???

That's why God made 1/2 Tape

😀😀😀

[Marvel]

8 minutes ago, the real Duke Spinner said:

That's why God made 1/2 Tape

Then He should have told us how to keep the oxide from falling off.

[the real Duke Spinner]

On 7/16/2023 at 1:43 PM, RickD said:

the best I've heard so far is the Pro-ject DAC box RS2 at $3000 The next best DAC is Chord's Qutest which really doesn't sound much different and it's a thousand more

 

Crazy money..

If you saw what was used i n Studios to record what you are listening to

It would be a revelation...

Hint

No $3000 interconnect cables. 🙄

[babadono]

On 8/2/2023 at 10:21 AM, the real Duke Spinner said:

Why would one take analog music, convert it to digits And then spend more money to go back to analog ???

That's why God made 1/2 Tape

😀😀😀

Cuz after it is converted to digital there is no more loss generation to generation. And the dynamic range if done properly is not even approachable in the analog domain. Also the manipulation that can be done in the digital domain for artistry/creativeness makes analog look like a child's toy. But you already knew this.

[the real Duke Spinner]

On 8/2/2023 at 1:30 PM, Marvel said:

Then He should have told us how to keep the oxide from falling off.

Purchase  3M GrandMaster. 🙂

[RickD]

I take that back about the Proj ect DAC BOX RS2. It sounded good at the audio store in a smaller system, but it didn't sound good at all connected to my McIntosh and Khorns. My RME ADI-2 sounds much more transparent.

[Marvel]

I would expect the RME to be terrific.

[RickD]

On 8/9/2023 at 3:08 AM, Marvel said:

I would expect the RME to be terrific.

I'm gonna keep it. That is if I can get my speakers working again.