Lascala AL5(possible with sub) or the Khorn AK6 (against a long wall)

[KT88]

2 hours ago, Flevoman said:

If I may continue thinking about this topic for a moment.

And this is purely hypothetical.

 

The high and mid horns are the same between the LaScala and Klipschorn, right?

Logically, I would assume that only the bass section makes the difference between these two speakers.

If I place the Klipschorn against a long wall, not with one side against the wall but like how I currently have the LaScala set up. So, with the back of the speaker against the wall, horns facing me, and slightly angled so that the intersection point is just behind my listening position.

Logically, I would think that the mid and high frequencies would sound exactly like how the LaScala sounds now, considering they have the same drivers, horns, and placement.

Knowing that the Klipschorn doesn't perform optimally because it's not in the corners, it should still sound better in the low frequencies compared to the LaScala, and the mid and high frequencies would be the same.

So even with this incorrect way of placing the Khorns this way it should still outperform the lascala. 

 

Is this a plausible assumption, or am I drawing incorrect conclusions?

 

I have heard the K402 horn in Hope in 2009 with different bass speakers, UJ vs. a 4x15" bass reflex speaker and also other different basses. I don't have the impression that from 500Hz upwards the sound is the same. It is a very complex interaction between a different given bass and the same mid and treble horn. It sounds different overall. The bass of the K-horn has completely different sound characteristics than the bass of the LaScala. The K-horn goes deeper but the bass of the LaScala ties in very well with the K401. You have to try it out. The dispersion of the LaScala bass vs. the Khorn bass is also quite different, and that again at different frequencies.

 

We hear holistically. Effects such as comb filter effects work as a whole and differently with the K-horn vs. the LaScala. The room also reacts differently to the K-horn than to the LaScala. It is not a simple mechanical exchange.

[henry4841]

Would you call the differences dramatic or just subtle to the casual listener? 

[Marvel]

3 hours ago, Flevoman said:

 

Did you already have enough reference at that time to be able to assess whether the Klipschorn, as it was set up then, provided an accurate sound image? 
I can imagine that if you hear the Khorn playing with such a setup for the first time, you could be quite impressed by the dynamic sound, but years later, with the necessary knowledge and experience under your belt, you might judge it very differently.

Quite possible... at that time my one system was a pair of JBL 4311 studio monitors. Between those and having done work in some recording studios ( the largest being when RCA had a large facility in Chicago ), I don't think I was totally clueless. That pic is not the system I heard. The one I did hear, they were sitting three to four feet out from the corners. I walked around behind them to look at the crossovers and drivers. This would have been in 1976 (I know the year because of other events going on in my life). It was at a house of one of our reporters from the tv station I was at in Memphis, TN. One of the news anchors had a pair of Altec Model 19s. They were ok but in too small a room and he played them too loud.

 

The Khorns sounded great...

 

I also didn't hear any other Klipsch until the early '80s, and those were some of DJK's LS cabinets, not genuine Klipsch. Those are what actually pointed me toward Klipsch, but it wasn't until after the turn of the century that I was totally sucked in.

[sixspeed]

5 hours ago, Flevoman said:

If I may continue thinking about this topic for a moment.

And this is purely hypothetical.

 

The high and mid horns are the same between the LaScala and Klipschorn, right?

Logically, I would assume that only the bass section makes the difference between these two speakers.

If I place the Klipschorn against a long wall, not with one side against the wall but like how I currently have the LaScala set up. So, with the back of the speaker against the wall, horns facing me, and slightly angled so that the intersection point is just behind my listening position.

Logically, I would think that the mid and high frequencies would sound exactly like how the LaScala sounds now, considering they have the same drivers, horns, and placement.

Knowing that the Klipschorn doesn't perform optimally because it's not in the corners, it should still sound better in the low frequencies compared to the LaScala, and the mid and high frequencies would be the same.

So even with this incorrect way of placing the Khorns this way it should still outperform the lascala. 

 

Is this a plausible assumption, or am I drawing incorrect conclusions?

 

Despite the similarities, the KHorn is just a better sounding speaker in everyway IMO. Including the new gen which I don't like as much as the previous gen. It's not just the bass either, it has more air, does dynamics better and just pressurizes a room better. The midrange doesn't sound as congested either, especially compared to the AL5. I know it's not the same as in person but Paducah posted a video that gives one a broad strokes idea of that in their AK6 vs AL5 comparison video. You can hear how much mushier the midrange is vs the KHorn AK6.

 

The sealed KHorn bass bin was something that was experimented with for 20-30 years and the only 2 production models where Klipsch did this prior to the AK6 was the 60th and 70th Anniversary KHorn. The Most recent anniversary model being the last of the AK5s made prior to the change to the AK6 design/driver changes.

 

So PWK had definitely considered/experimented with a sealed KHorn bass bin for some time. Especially considering the fact that the underground Jubs he loved were front ported and sealed in the back using a KPT style bass horn. On the sealed KHorn they vent on the side but forwards at a 45 degree angle with a smaller exiting than the KPT bin. It acts as a further horn on the sealed back and really helps pressurize the room with fast, tight, clean bass. Makes integrating and finding an adequate sub that can keep up quite difficult. A fast sealed REL, Rythmik or Velodyne will do that ok other than a massive Danley tapped horn.

 

And even though the bass bin is sealed, the Klipschorn is still very much a cornerhorn speaker. The sealed bin just gives one a bit of flexibility with toe in or when they have heating baseboards that stick out a 2-3 inches from the bottom wall that would be problematic on the open back model. So they still need to be at the very least in the vicinity of a corner, ideally no further than a 1ft or 2 off one. They can be placed in non-corners but the bass won't be nearly as authoritative and the bass bin may even draw attention to itself on deeper/harder hitting music/content depending on the room and other factors.

 

 

[KT88]

2 hours ago, henry4841 said:

Would you call the differences dramatic or just subtle to the casual listener? 

Comparing the Underground Jubilee bass with the 4x15" bassreflex cabinet, I would say that the speed and freshness, the light and airy yet massive attack of the Jubilee bass horn had a positive influence on the perception of the mids and highs. The same K402 in combination with the 4x15 cabinet made a slower and more boring impression also in the mids and highs.

But I would also like to say that I think the difference in mids and highs is smaller when comparing different bass horns. It was almost irritating how big the difference is compared to conventional bass reflex speakers.

[Daan]

Thanks to Marvel ()! , Flevoman found me over here in Holland: we are only about 3/4 of a hour apart!

We had a nice get together and a listen.

He now has a first impression about what closed cornerhorns can do regarding bass extension and scale amplified with only a few Watts.

I saved my favorite bass tracks and the attack of the Japanese group " Ondekoza"  for another time.... my system already was a bit "too rich for his taste"  in the bass department, which i fully understand.

I am a bass addict, i admit.

 

I suggested him to think about the idea of one Khorn basscabinet with a active mono amp plus dsp. That way he could experience the low frequencies he is missing now.

La Scala's just can't reach there because of the shorter basshorn.

With one Khorn as sub coupled to a monoblock amp+ dsp, he would be able to control the cut-off, boost, volume and time delay which will make it complement the La Scala's perfectly.

I have a friend who owns a local furniture shop ànd La Scala's ( my doing, he uses them in his huge workshop!)) and who can make the Khorn basscab for him. We are waiting for a price....

 

In terms of mids:  I abandoned the K400 and K401 a long time ago and never went back.

Using a 2 inch Fostex driver starting at 300 Hz, coupled to a 80cm wide 200Hz cutoff wooden tractrix midhorn makes listening to music at live- volumes a experience without the strain and ear- fatique that i always had with both LS's and the Khorns. 

 

But as usual: it's only my preference and i can fully understand why lots of people like the sound of the stock LS and Khorns, since these designs still amaze people today!

Another day in paradise....

Nico

 

 

 

[Daan]

Btw: having no usable corners for a Khorn, i suggested to place it horizontally using both the wall and floor to complete the last fold of the horn while keeping a low profile in the room and not disturbing the looks of the LS's.

[henry4841]

3 hours ago, Daan said:

Btw: having no usable corners for a Khorn, i suggested to place it horizontally using both the wall and floor to complete the last fold of the horn while keeping a low profile in the room and not disturbing the looks of the LS's.

Fevoman and myself PM regularly and I saw your setup. You are my kind of guy, I like what you have done. Excellent work. 

[Daan]

Thanks, and he mentioned your name already as the person he likes to PM with.

I loved every set of La Scala's that have been in our home. Completely modified one set purely out of curiosity. 

Now hope to be able to help Flevoman with some usefull tips for enjoying his La Scala's the most ( a lot of tips i learned here !).

Still enjoying the work of Mr. W.P Klipsch regarding the cornerhorn.

 

 

 

[KT88]

10 hours ago, Daan said:

Btw: having no usable corners for a Khorn, i suggested to place it horizontally using both the wall and floor to complete the last fold of the horn while keeping a low profile in the room and not disturbing the looks of the LS's.

 

I had built our first horn system together with a buddy in 1979, which wasn't bad at all. First we had a backloaded bass horn. Then I discovered drawings for a Klipsch horn. It was higher than today's khorns and it was designed for a 12" bass driver. Maybe it really did exist as an early first series at PWK? Anyway, it was a lot of work and effort. I didn't have much money at 19 so we built it out of chipboard. At least the sound was very good. Since I had only built one khorn bass, it lay in the middle between the wooden midrange horns in exactly the way you describe. At that time, of course, it was analogue and controlled by the left and right amplifier via two coils. It was a very good and satisfying sound. The floor can simulate a strong "corner". In this sense and way Flevoman could try it out.

[Flevoman]

13 hours ago, Daan said:

Thanks to Marvel ()! , Flevoman found me over here in Holland: we are only about 3/4 of a hour apart!

We had a nice get together and a listen.

He now has a first impression about what closed cornerhorns can do regarding bass extension and scale amplified with only a few Watts.

I saved my favorite bass tracks and the attack of the Japanese group " Ondekoza"  for another time.... my system already was a bit "too rich for his taste"  in the bass department, which i fully understand.

I am a bass addict, i admit.

 

I suggested him to think about the idea of one Khorn basscabinet with a active mono amp plus dsp. That way he could experience the low frequencies he is missing now.

La Scala's just can't reach there because of the shorter basshorn.

With one Khorn as sub coupled to a monoblock amp+ dsp, he would be able to control the cut-off, boost, volume and time delay which will make it complement the La Scala's perfectly.

I have a friend who owns a local furniture shop ànd La Scala's ( my doing, he uses them in his huge workshop!)) and who can make the Khorn basscab for him. We are waiting for a price....

 

In terms of mids:  I abandoned the K400 and K401 a long time ago and never went back.

Using a 2 inch Fostex driver starting at 300 Hz, coupled to a 80cm wide 200Hz cutoff wooden tractrix midhorn makes listening to music at live- volumes a experience without the strain and ear- fatique that i always had with both LS's and the Khorns. 

 

But as usual: it's only my preference and i can fully understand why lots of people like the sound of the stock LS and Khorns, since these designs still amaze people today!

Another day in paradise....

Nico

 

 

 

 

Nice to see you responding in this topic Daan.
And your speakers certainly made an big impression. Both the looks and the craftsmanship with which they are made, as well as the bass... it was impressively present 😄. However, for my unaccustomed ears, it was a bit too much.

Love your mids though. 

 

Ohh!!!... Today, I stopped by my mother's for dinner, told her about our meeting and your speakers, showed her the pictures I took... and she thought it was so clever of you to have those handy little cabinets on the sides of your speakers to put things in. I literally had tears rolling down my cheeks from laughter. She's such a lovely person.

 

Your suggestion to replicate the bass cabinet of the Khorn and place it on its side in the corner of the floor/wall to create a horn subwoofer was mind-blowing... Truly amazing 👍🏻
It's now on my list as a potential upgrade.

[Daan]

In my opinion (and experience) it will be a outstanding subwoofer for what you are after. Even when not placed in a corner, it will still benefit from the acoustic coupling to the wall and floor.

One will be enough, having a dedicated amp + dsp : it will add to the "live feeling " that the LS's are already known for.

But first let's see if that cab can be made for a reasonable price.... should hear it at the end of the week.

 

 

[Marvel]

@Daan Awesome! I'm so glad you two were able to connect. I am going to go back through your early posts. They are always so inspiring.

 

👍

[henry4841]

2 hours ago, Flevoman said:

 

and she thought it was so clever of you to have those handy little cabinets on the sides of your speakers to put things in. 

 

 

I've seen plants inside a LaScala more than once in my time. I will assume after significant other had passed away and she was left with speakers. 

[Marvel]

Depending on the music, the plants might do quite well.

[babadono]

On 7/4/2023 at 6:37 AM, KT88 said:

 

I have heard the K402 horn in Hope in 2009 with different bass speakers, UJ vs. a 4x15" bass reflex speaker and also other different basses. I don't have the impression that from 500Hz upwards the sound is the same. It is a very complex interaction between a different given bass and the same mid and treble horn. It sounds different overall. The bass of the K-horn has completely different sound characteristics than the bass of the LaScala. The K-horn goes deeper but the bass of the LaScala ties in very well with the K401. You have to try it out. The dispersion of the LaScala bass vs. the Khorn bass is also quite different, and that again at different frequencies.

 

We hear holistically. Effects such as comb filter effects work as a whole and differently with the K-horn vs. the LaScala. The room also reacts differently to the K-horn than to the LaScala. It is not a simple mechanical exchange.

Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!

[Flevoman]

6 hours ago, henry4841 said:

I've seen plants inside a LaScala more than once in my time. I will assume after significant other had passed away and she was left with speakers. 

I showed her pictures of my new speakers, the La Scalas, after that.
"Wow, they're huge! And can you store your LPs in here?" pointing at the bass horn.
And she was dead serious 😄

[Marvel]

People have mounted khorns upside down against the ceiling. I suppose you could put a top/bottom on the bass bin and have on its side centered one the front wall. You wouldn't have the full corner loading though.

[KT88]

7 hours ago, babadono said:

Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!

Thanks, babadono. First I had no clue about the meaning of the phrase🤓

 

www.dictionary.com/e/slang/winner-winner-chicken-dinner/

[Daan]

We have A LOT of book/ record storage at home,

4 x this!...