Lascala AL5(possible with sub) or the Khorn AK6 (against a long wall)

[Flevoman]

If I may share a song that made me giggle because it sounded incredibly tight and dynamic on the La Scala. With this track, I heard for the first time in my living room what makes the La Scala so special. I found it to sound very impressive on my setup.

 

Nenad Vasilic-Bass room 

(nr 5) Kradem ti se u veceri

 

 

[Shakeydeal]

Even though you seem to like them, your description of the speakers is very different than what I hear from my LS II. I can say that upstream electronics can be detrimental to the sound. Lascalas aren’t “plug n play” that will sound awesome with every front end. By your own admission you’ve already heard some dramatic differences in amplifiers. A speaker like the LS will only magnify those differences.

 

I’d start with amplifiers. I know you’ve been looking at integrated amps,  but don’t discount a good pre/amp combo. And source components are just as important. 

[henry4841]

The one things horn speakers are, in general, are unforgiving of source, amplification. With excellent recordings and gear they will sound amazing. Any faults with anything in front of them, source, gear, will definitely be shown. Not so much with conventional speakers that cannot reproduce the small details of music and vocals. Many will accuse the speakers when it is the singer or equipment that is the fault. Most conventional speakers will not produce the tiny details of reproduction and many will falsely claim conventional speakers sound better when in reality they are just not able to reproduce those details. I've played around with conventional speakers and some do sound really good but you loose dynamics and details horns can reproduce. I will assume bigger horn will magnify this more than smaller one. 

[KT88]

49 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

The one things horn speakers are, in general, are unforgiving of source, amplification. With excellent recordings and gear they will sound amazing. Any faults with anything in front of them, source, gear, will definitely be shown. Not so much with conventional speakers that cannot reproduce the small details of music and vocals. Many will accuse the speakers when it is the singer or equipment that is the fault. Most conventional speakers will not produce the tiny details of reproduction and many will falsely claim conventional speakers sound better when in reality they are just not able to reproduce those details. I've played around with conventional speakers and some do sound really good but you loose dynamics and details horns can reproduce. I will assume bigger horn will magnify this more than smaller one. 

I totally agree with you, Henry. I would add that in my non-essential experience it is not just the size of the horn that matters. I have the impression that a Tractrix horn, even a big one,  allows a bit more (just a bit more, it also is demanding) forgiveness towards the source or anything upstream than an Exponential horn (regarding the mid band). The exponential horn like the K401 seems to be a bit more unforgiving in my experience, but when everything upstream is right, it can bring out all its glory.

 

This is not to say that a tractrix horn has less qualities than an exponential horn. On the contrary, a tractrix can be quite outstanding and is the more modern approach. But perhaps it also means a certain period of adjustment for the ears from tractrix (CW4) „back“ to exponential (K400/401). But that a Lascala has too little clarity in the treble or too little energy in the treble, I can not confirm in my experience.
 

[Marvel]

I had the original version LS. In my smaller room and later, larger room powered with 2a3 monoblocks, they would disappear with most recordings. Orchestral music was like sitting in a concert hall. Jazz like being in a small club. Some CDs, not so much. When good, they were very good. Hardly any were bad, just obvious they were constructs put together in a studio.

[KT88]

There is one more point. I belong to the camp of pre amp users, because of the impedance adjustment, etc.. For my taste it sounds rounder, fuller, more rhythmic, more energetic with a pre amp. But maybe that's just me, others may have reasons and good experience to skip the pre.

I don't know the internal of the amps you use, Melvin, from personal experience. Maybe you can find out here in the forum if they are really integrated amps or actually just a power amp with a volume control. 
I had for fun my Bluesound Node connected directly to the power amp, it has volume control if you want. The output voltage is quite enough. But to my ears, the sound without pre amp was more colorless, less powerful and no longer really exciting and beautiful but flat and without much substance. A preamp with cathode follower at the output or a transistor pre with low output impedance brings from my point of view the music in the system.

[Flevoman]

3 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

Even though you seem to like them, your description of the speakers is very different than what I hear from my LS II. I can say that upstream electronics can be detrimental to the sound. Lascalas aren’t “plug n play” that will sound awesome with every front end. By your own admission you’ve already heard some dramatic differences in amplifiers. A speaker like the LS will only magnify those differences.

 

I’d start with amplifiers. I know you’ve been looking at integrated amps,  but don’t discount a good pre/amp combo. And source components are just as important. 

 

Lascales are definitely not plug and play, no. But which speaker from the Heritage line is it then? Each speaker requires its own attention in its own way. As for amplifiers, yes... I agree with you. It's all about finding the right match.

For example, the Willsenton R300 has a somewhat dark sound. It worked fine with the CW4, which has a brighter sound. However, with the LS, the sound becomes too dark.

 

I visited the audio dealer yesterday, and now I have the Melody 300B STE here at home to try out. This already sounds better, music is open and with fine detail...but if it can sounds a bit more fresh it would be perfect. 

Maybe the amp I traded in for the lascala would be a good match now 😄 (Melody MDA2 2A3, but combined with the CW4 it could sound sometimes to fresh/harsh) 

 

It's funny that you also mentioned separate pre- and power amplifiers. That's what KT88 mentioned to me as well.

I'm going to discuss this with my audio dealer. Let's see what their advice is and what they might be able to offer. But thanks for your input.

[Flevoman]

2 hours ago, KT88 said:

 

This is not to say that a tractrix horn has less qualities than an exponential horn. On the contrary, a tractrix can be quite outstanding and is the more modern approach. But perhaps it also means a certain period of adjustment for the ears from tractrix (CW4) „back“ to exponential (K400/401). But that a Lascala has too little clarity in the treble or too little energy in the treble, I can not confirm in my experience.
 

To be honest. I think you nailed it here. 

I remember when I went from the CW3 to the CW4 the first thing I did notice was the more open and fresh sound of the CW4. This was the most noticeable for me at that time. 

The mid of the lascala sounds detailed and open, but a tat dark. 

Probably it will be a combination of a good amp and get used to the kind of sound. 

 

[mikebse2a3]

8 hours ago, Flevoman said:

- I find the overall sound a bit dark, not quite open enough.
It's like you would want to turn the treble knob on your preamplifier a bit.
Is it a matter of proper placement/positioning? Another amplifier? Or should I just accept that this is how the speaker sounds?

 

This is not how the speaker sounds and is an indicator that 1st attention should be given to placement/positioning and could be of real benefit based on my experiences.

 

8 hours ago, Flevoman said:

- There is a certain resonance in the sound that I just can't determine whether it's in the recording, caused by the horn, or some kind of cabinet resonance.
It's only audible with certain tones/dynamics/frequencies in the music.
Is this characteristic of the Lascala? There's plenty of information about resonance in the original Lascala. However, I thought this was addressed in the II and AL5 versions.

 

I believe because of the nature of the La Scala frequency response especially in the 100Hz - 200Hz region that it’s very important to find a SBIR position that doesn’t emphasize this region unnaturally which can lead to the experience you describe here as well.

 

8 hours ago, Flevoman said:

- The music could separate better from the speaker.
Currently, I can still clearly hear the music coming from the left, right speaker, and the center. This can definitely be improved, but it's a matter of adjusting, tweaking, etc.

 

Yes this is definitely a strong indicator of loudspeaker placement and perhaps room acoustics need attention.

 

What is the nature/conditions of your listening position since some of the issues with speaker position can also be true of the chosen listening position like for example proximity to rear wall and early reflections issues.

 

If on good recordings the images are clinging to the speakers and not produced as a very open (3-dimensional) experience with the La Scalas disappearing as the sound sources then room acoustic reflections and loudspeaker/listener positions need attention in my experiences.

 

 

8 hours ago, Flevoman said:

I've decided to dedicate next weekend to adjusting the speakers and listening position to get that right first.

 

This 👍🙂 ….. is extremely important step that should be fully explored and best of all its free..!!!

 

miketn

[KT88]

One more thought, they are slightly used speakers, but technically everything is ok and without modifications, right? I understand everything possible but not really that they sound a bit dull without enough treble.

[Flevoman]

3 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

 

This is not how the speaker sounds and is an indicator that 1st attention should be given to placement/positioning and could be of real benefit based on my experiences.

 

 

I believe because of the nature of the La Scala frequency response especially in the 100Hz - 200Hz region that it’s very important to find a SBIR position that doesn’t emphasize this region unnaturally which can lead to the experience you describe here as well.

 

 

Yes this is definitely a strong indicator of loudspeaker placement and perhaps room acoustics need attention.

 

What is the nature/conditions of your listening position since some of the issues with speaker position can also be true of the chosen listening position like for example proximity to rear wall and early reflections issues.

 

If on good recordings the images are clinging to the speakers and not produced as a very open (3-dimensional) experience with the La Scalas disappearing as the sound sources then room acoustic reflections and loudspeaker/listener positions need attention in my experiences.

 

 

 

This 👍🙂 ….. is extremely important step that should be fully explored and best of all its free..!!!

 

miketn

 

I can fully agree with your opinion.

I haven't delved into it very deeply yet, but I notice that the Lascala pays much more attention to proper placement. And it seems very plausible (and I hope so too) that with better placement, the speaker will shine even more.

However, what does the term "SIBR position" mean? And what typically happens in the 100Hz-200Hz range? Is this a specific frequency range where the deep male voice or the low tones of a guitar can be found?

 

To give you a better idea of my situation: my living room is 5.5 meters wide and 12 meters long. The speakers are placed in the middle against the long wall. Currently, they are about 2.5 meters apart, measured from the outer edges of the speaker cabinets. The listening position is 3 meters away from the speakers (measured straight ahead). The speakers are angled 20 degrees inward, and the center of each speaker is positioned 50 cm from the wall.

Are there any general guidelines I can follow when searching for the right position? There are so many variables to consider, such as placing the listening position one meter from the wall or against the wall, having the speakers close to or away from the wall, not angled or slightly angled, or even extreme positioning towards the hotspot. While it will ultimately require some experimentation, having some guidelines can help me understand what I'm doing.

[Flevoman]

1 hour ago, KT88 said:

One more thought, they are slightly used speakers, but technically everything is ok and without modifications, right? I understand everything possible but not really that they sound a bit dull without enough treble.

 

I'm 100% sure they are 100% stock. 

But good point. 

Ain't it just possible that this is the difference between the 2 horn types what I hear? 

[KT88]

28 minutes ago, Flevoman said:

 

I can fully agree with your opinion.

I haven't delved into it very deeply yet, but I notice that the Lascala pays much more attention to proper placement. And it seems very plausible (and I hope so too) that with better placement, the speaker will shine even more.

However, what does the term "SIBR position" mean? And what typically happens in the 100Hz-200Hz range? Is this a specific frequency range where the deep male voice or the low tones of a guitar can be found?

 

To give you a better idea of my situation: my living room is 5.5 meters wide and 12 meters long. The speakers are placed in the middle against the long wall. Currently, they are about 2.5 meters apart, measured from the outer edges of the speaker cabinets. The listening position is 3 meters away from the speakers (measured straight ahead). The speakers are angled 20 degrees inward, and the center of each speaker is positioned 50 cm from the wall.

Are there any general guidelines I can follow when searching for the right position? There are so many variables to consider, such as placing the listening position one meter from the wall or against the wall, having the speakers close to or away from the wall, not angled or slightly angled, or even extreme positioning towards the hotspot. While it will ultimately require some experimentation, having some guidelines can help me understand what I'm doing.

I recall that Mike has described SIBR in your other thread. see below. BTW 2,50m from outer edge to outer edge is in my view too narrow placed. I would say as a rule of thumb the wider apart the more angle in.

 

 

[henry4841]

I can understand Flev saying a SET300b with LaScala is sorta dark sounding. More will say more lush sounding of which I am their camp. The word lush is used frequently describing the sound of a SET 300B. As with any piece of equipment there are many who will say a certain piece is not their cup of tea. My SET 300B is the last amp I would part with. This is not to say I do not like the sound of my many other amps but my favorite by far is my 300B. 

 

After reading the praise of the Decware Zen by members here I pulled my Zen clone out, of which I have not used in over a year, to give it a listen and I must say with our efficient speakers it sounds mighty good and never runs out of power with just a couple of watts. And it does have a sound many would prefer over my SET 300B. Many would also say clearer sounding but then the rich lush sound of the 300B is what turns me on. Hey, this is entertainment and not rocket science.   

[Flevoman]

@KT88 You're right, he had already explained this clearly.
You remembered that correctly.
I'm not sure if we understand each other well.
But I have (just measured precisely) a space of 2.8 meters between the speakers.
Putting them further apart is not really possible for me.
This should be sufficient, I hope?

[KT88]

20 minutes ago, Flevoman said:

@KT88 You're right, he had already explained this clearly.
You remembered that correctly.
I'm not sure if we understand each other well.
But I have (just measured precisely) a space of 2.8 meters between the speakers.
Putting them further apart is not really possible for me.
This should be sufficient, I hope?

Ok, Melvin, I only mentioned it because you wrote:

„The speakers are placed in the middle against the long wall. Currently, they are about 2.5 meters apart, measured from the outer edges of the speaker cabinets.“

[Flevoman]

Exactly, I said it wrong I think, that's why I tried to be more clear. 

Sorry, language barrier sometimes 😉

[Flevoman]

It does indeed seem that I have an acoustic problem.
I pushed the couch back quite a bit, sitting about 50cm away from the back wall now. 
The speakers are positioned farther apart.
And it sounds noticeably better.
The music has gained a bit more air. 
The bass goes slightly deeper.
And that resonance I occasionally heard seems to be gone now, or at least significantly reduced.
I'll listen again tomorrow with "fresh" ears, but this already gives a very positive first impression.

[Shakeydeal]

42 minutes ago, Flevoman said:

It does indeed seem that I have an acoustic problem.
I pushed the couch back quite a bit, sitting about 50cm away from the back wall now. 
The speakers are positioned farther apart.
And it sounds noticeably better.
The music has gained a bit more air. 
The bass goes slightly deeper.
And that resonance I occasionally heard seems to be gone now, or at least significantly reduced.
I'll listen again tomorrow with "fresh" ears, but this already gives a very positive first impression.

 

👍

[ClaudeJ1]

On 6/18/2023 at 2:04 AM, Flevoman said:

 

Sorry, but I don't quite understand what you're trying to say. Could you please explain it a bit more clearly for me? I'm really curious about your explanation.

The effective mouth size of a Klipsch Bass Horn is the walls of a room corner, which is 4x4 feet. Since the Undergroound Jublilee and the Klipchorn bass horns were designed for a corner, they become 8 foot long horns. The mouth of a LaScala is too far from the walls to be as effective as the Khorn or the Jubilee in BASS EXtension department. All speakers have Cabin Gain in small rooms (those in most homes) and this is why Klipsch can make shorter horns that take advantage of this.