How to connect Axi 2050

[MMurg]

10 hours ago, diamonddelts said:

I don't think Klipsch is making the Palladium speakers  anymore. I was fascinated by their specs and they looked amazing.  I saw that Mmurg owned a pair before he moved on to the Heritage Jubilees. 

 

I still own all my Palladium speakers.  They were my "endgame" speakers until I heard that the Heritage Jubilee was coming.  They are fantastic, just not as good as the Jubes.  🙂  Unfortunately, you are correct that Klipsch isn't making them anymore.  The line was discontinued in 2016.  So, that mostly means buying used like I did.  However, Paducah Home Theater does happen to have two pair of "new old stock" P-38F that were sent to dealers for short demo sessions and then returned and placed in storage.  They are selling for half of the original retail price.  They also have new old stock P-312W subs as well.  However, when purchasing Palladiums today you have to take into consideration the pretty much complete lack of replacement parts.  Klipsch no longer has any.  I've been watching eBay, etc. and have found some used drivers parted out from speakers with damaged cabinets for "just in case" spares.  Definitely worth a listen if you can find a place to hear them though.

 

[OO1]

19 minutes ago, diamonddelts said:

 

as I said previously ,   the spring loaded  connectors /   diaphragm assembly  are a 1 piece  assembly  , what you're looking at is the diaphragm on 1 side and the cover + spring loaded connectors on the other side  .   

 

[diamonddelts]

56 minutes ago, OO1 said:

as I said previously ,   the spring loaded  connectors /   diaphragm assembly  are a 1 piece  assembly  , what you're looking at is the diaphragm on 1 side and the cover + spring loaded connectors on the other side  .

 

 

Ok, so I can safely assume if I order a diaphragm repair kit I will get the cover with connectors on one side and the diaphragm on the rear side. If so, i will place an order on Monday. Thank you very much for answering my rather mundane questions on this.

[diamonddelts]

1 hour ago, MMurg said:

 

I still own all my Palladium speakers.  They were my "endgame" speakers until I heard that the Heritage Jubilee was coming.  They are fantastic, just not as good as the Jubes.  🙂  Unfortunately, you are correct that Klipsch isn't making them anymore.  The line was discontinued in 2016.  So, that mostly means buying used like I did.  However, Paducah Home Theater does happen to have two pair of "new old stock" P-38F that were sent to dealers for short demo sessions and then returned and placed in storage.  They are selling for half of the original retail price.  They also have new old stock P-312W subs as well.  However, when purchasing Palladiums today you have to take into consideration the pretty much complete lack of replacement parts.  Klipsch no longer has any.  I've been watching eBay, etc. and have found some used drivers parted out from speakers with damaged cabinets for "just in case" spares.  Definitely worth a listen if you can find a place to hear them though.

 

Yes sir. This is why I took your experiences so seriously. Many people will rave about top speakers, but they've never heard any other high end speakers that are competitive. You've owned a very good pair of high end speakers in the Palladiums yet the Heritage Jubilees  knocked your socks off. That was a big selling point to me.

[OO1]

 

[Travis In Austin]

On 6/28/2023 at 9:02 PM, diamonddelts said:

As for cinema use, the 402 horn just does not control and project the dialogue as well as the 510 horn in combination with the 402 horn. That was made painfully clear to me over the last few months. As for the drivers that I've been tinkering with, I know these Celestion Axi 2050s do not have the specially designed phase plug from Roy. My thoughts on these drivers were simply mirroring what the reviewer said. They need some serious boosting above 5khz. Not a big deal and not the end of the world. No driver is an end all, be all. And every driver design has compromises. These are still some of the best drivers I've heard out of the box.

 

If I had never heard the 3 way Jubilees, I would be sold on a 2 way setup and never look back. But the 3 way is the more effective solution for movies and playback in a larger room. The synergy between the K-1133HP and the K-691 is something special. I can't put my finger on it because either driver on it's own is nothing special on paper. And I definitely feel the K-691 can be improved upon hence my incessant tinkering. 

 

Roy has been teaching us at Jubefests and other venues why in Professional Cinema they offer a similar product in a 2,3 and 4 way, it is strictly a matter of power, getting the sound to the rear of the venue. (A two-way, with a 2" mid CD, will beam the same as a three-way with 2" CDs, and the same as a 4 way with 3 2" drivers). So all he needs to know for pro-cinema is: How large is the cinema? All he needs to know is the depth and width, the depth is going to tell him whether it is going to require a 2, 3 or 4-way, and the width is going to tell him how many systems will be required across the front 3 (LCR), 5 (L, LC, C,RC, R). It's strictly a matter of the power required, for deeper rooms it requires more power and a 2-way or 3-way won't be able to handle it. With DSP he can cross it over without loss of speech intelligibility or high end.  Since the UG 2-way had more than enough power to handle a typical home environment that's what it was. Then Roy got his hands on TAD be CDs and made those available and that helped with some of the HF limitations the K-69 had. 

 

But all 2" compression drivers start to beam at 7 Khz, even if you could get away with a 1" CD for the HF, it still starts beaming at about 13 Khz, This is born out by the measurements of Joseph Crowe you posted above (which were with his horn, and passive padding). I think the main reason the Axi was chosen is the low distortion (the result of the massive 5" voice coil) and that he could get the beaming up way above 7 Khz with his external extended phase plug. The two top design principles of PWK for accurate reproduction, low distortion and controlled directivity. 

 

I don't know how large the room is you are talking about, but when the demonstration pair was sent around the country to various dealers (this was the same pair we heard in Hope), they were sent to a dealer in North Carolina where they were set up for 2 ch listening in a home type environment, and then they were taken to a 400 seat auditorium (Lincoln Theater) where they served as the PA for a live band and, apparently, the dealer was floored with the sound. I can't imagine them having trouble handling a residential media/listening room with a depth of up to 40'.

 

 

 

But there have been a few people who went with 3-way (Jubilee 535-B). The one with the most experience on that, Mark, has since gone back to two-way. It may be that it's just your preference, or it could be variables in play when you heard the 535-B, etc. 

 

On 6/28/2023 at 9:02 PM, diamonddelts said:

Depending on how the other drivers sound, I might have to go back home to JBL and buy the M2, Everest, or SCL 1 speakers.

You are not going to be happy with the Everest, not if you prefer the horn-loaded bass sound of the Jubilee. Once you get acclimatized to horn-loaded bass there is just no going back (at least for me, and many others I have talked to). It is the only thing that produces natural bass sound. I have a lot of experience with the Everest, and even though it provides adequate low-end for music, it's a direct radiator and just doesn't sound natural to me. The M2 is also a great-sounding speaker, but you are going to have significant low-end disadvantages with that as well. A 15" woofer, to get down to 30 Hz (it's 10 dB down at 20) is going to have to move, a lot, there is just no way around that, and there is distortion associated with that. 

 

What size is the room that these are going in to? If you mentioned that in another thread I apologize, I may have missed it. You are in central Texas like me, right? If you get me those dimensions and/or layout, and a few photos (you can PM them to me), I will see if we might be able to have @Chief bonehead take a look and can explain why you are having a preference for one over the other, room acoustics, and what's going to work best. Maybe it works out we can just take a road trip to Hope, have Jim Hunter walk us through the Museum, and explain the evolution of PWK's four design principles, and then take Roy to lunch and he can explain how those 4 things (low distortion, controlled directivity, controlled frequency response, and dynamic range, in that order) translate into the best sound, what the UG 3 way had to offer vs. Jubilee and how to account for certain things you are hearing. The 402 is his horn, the 510 is his horn, the mumps for the 510 is his patent, the Jubilee LF is his patent, the patent-pending phase plug will be his patent, he selected the 1133HP and the 691, designed the phase plug for the 691, in other words, he is familiar with the all of the things they considered in making those choices, why there is magic you are hearing with 691/1133HP MF/HF, what the limitations/compromises are with that compared to the Jubilee. It may be your personal preference, or the room- higher directivity of those driver-horn combos, and/or psychoacoustics.

 

Travis

[Travis In Austin]

8 hours ago, diamonddelts said:

 

Ok, so I can safely assume if I order a diaphragm repair kit I will get the cover with connectors on one side and the diaphragm on the rear side. If so, i will place an order on Monday. Thank you very much for answering my rather mundane questions on this.

Maybe @Chief bonehead will be around here this weekend to verify this. Not sure if ACE will be open on Monday, nothing around here is except HEB and firework stands. 

[diamonddelts]

7 hours ago, Travis In Austin said:

Roy has been teaching us at Jubefests and other venues why in Professional Cinema they offer a similar product in a 2,3 and 4 way, it is strictly a matter of power, getting the sound to the rear of the venue. (A two-way, with a 2" mid CD, will beam the same as a three-way with 2" CDs, and the same as a 4 way with 3 2" drivers). So all he needs to know for pro-cinema is: How large is the cinema? All he needs to know is the depth and width, the depth is going to tell him whether it is going to require a 2, 3 or 4-way, and the width is going to tell him how many systems will be required across the front 3 (LCR), 5 (L, LC, C,RC, R). It's strictly a matter of the power required, for deeper rooms it requires more power and a 2-way or 3-way won't be able to handle it. With DSP he can cross it over without loss of speech intelligibility or high end.  Since the UG 2-way had more than enough power to handle a typical home environment that's what it was. Then Roy got his hands on TAD be CDs and made those available and that helped with some of the HF limitations the K-69 had. 

 

But all 2" compression drivers start to beam at 7 Khz, even if you could get away with a 1" CD for the HF, it still starts beaming at about 13 Khz, This is born out by the measurements of Joseph Crowe you posted above (which were with his horn, and passive padding). I think the main reason the Axi was chosen is the low distortion (the result of the massive 5" voice coil) and that he could get the beaming up way above 7 Khz with his external extended phase plug. The two top design principles of PWK for accurate reproduction, low distortion and controlled directivity. 

 

I don't know how large the room is you are talking about, but when the demonstration pair was sent around the country to various dealers (this was the same pair we heard in Hope), they were sent to a dealer in North Carolina where they were set up for 2 ch listening in a home type environment, and then they were taken to a 400 seat auditorium (Lincoln Theater) where they served as the PA for a live band and, apparently, the dealer was floored with the sound. I can't imagine them having trouble handling a residential media/listening room with a depth of up to 40'.

 

 

 

But there have been a few people who went with 3-way (Jubilee 535-B). The one with the most experience on that, Mark, has since gone back to two-way. It may be that it's just your preference, or it could be variables in play when you heard the 535-B, etc. 

 

You are not going to be happy with the Everest, not if you prefer the horn-loaded bass sound of the Jubilee. Once you get acclimatized to horn-loaded bass there is just no going back (at least for me, and many others I have talked to). It is the only thing that produces natural bass sound. I have a lot of experience with the Everest, and even though it provides adequate low-end for music, it's a direct radiator and just doesn't sound natural to me. The M2 is also a great-sounding speaker, but you are going to have significant low-end disadvantages with that as well. A 15" woofer, to get down to 30 Hz (it's 10 dB down at 20) is going to have to move, a lot, there is just no way around that, and there is distortion associated with that. 

 

What size is the room that these are going in to? If you mentioned that in another thread I apologize, I may have missed it. You are in central Texas like me, right? If you get me those dimensions and/or layout, and a few photos (you can PM them to me), I will see if we might be able to have @Chief bonehead take a look and can explain why you are having a preference for one over the other, room acoustics, and what's going to work best. Maybe it works out we can just take a road trip to Hope, have Jim Hunter walk us through the Museum, and explain the evolution of PWK's four design principles, and then take Roy to lunch and he can explain how those 4 things (low distortion, controlled directivity, controlled frequency response, and dynamic range, in that order) translate into the best sound, what the UG 3 way had to offer vs. Jubilee and how to account for certain things you are hearing. The 402 is his horn, the 510 is his horn, the mumps for the 510 is his patent, the Jubilee LF is his patent, the patent-pending phase plug will be his patent, he selected the 1133HP and the 691, designed the phase plug for the 691, in other words, he is familiar with the all of the things they considered in making those choices, why there is magic you are hearing with 691/1133HP MF/HF, what the limitations/compromises are with that compared to the Jubilee. It may be your personal preference, or the room- higher directivity of those driver-horn combos, and/or psychoacoustics.

 

Travis

As always, thank you very much for your thoughtful response Travis.

[Marvel]

21 hours ago, Travis In Austin said:

Once you get acclimatized to horn-loaded bass there is just no going back (at least for me, and many others I have talked to). It is the only thing that produces natural bass sound.

THIS! I admit that the only time I heard the UG Jubilee was early on, in the hotel at the pilgrimage in Indy. But having had LaScalas and MWMs, horn loaded bass is THE BEST. I missed my MWMs within minutes of them leaving my house.

 

I can only imagine how amazing the Heritage Jubilees must sound.

[diamonddelts]

I asked for a quote on a new pair of mwms. They have me interested.

[OO1]

4 hours ago, diamonddelts said:

I asked for a quote on a new pair of mwms. They have me interested.

KPT Cinema Grandeur is even better  with   KPT-1802-HLS .......vented LF   , just like a Heritage Jubilee 

https://assets.klipsch.com/product-specsheets/KPT-Cinema-Grandeur-Data-Sheet-v03.pdf

[diamonddelts]

23 hours ago, OO1 said:

KPT Cinema Grandeur is even better  with   KPT-1802-HLS .......vented LF   , just like a Heritage Jubilee 

https://assets.klipsch.com/product-specsheets/KPT-Cinema-Grandeur-Data-Sheet-v03.pdf

 

The compression drivers in the KPT Cinema Grandeur look to be much beefier than the Celestion Axi 2050 used with the Heritage Jubilee. I don't see why Klipsch did not go with a more robust 3" or 4" cd with more HF extension for the Heritage Jubillees. For the asking price of the Jubilees, I feel like there could have been better quality components used.

 

The JBL 4367 and M2 speakers have much beefier cds for almost half the price of the Heritage Jubilees.

[OO1]

 the Cinema Grandeur handles 600 seats theatres   , the HJ handles  a room in a house , 2 very different applications 

 

[MMurg]

2 hours ago, diamonddelts said:

 

The compression drivers in the KPT Cinema Grandeur look to be much beefier than the Celestion Axi 2050 used with the Heritage Jubilee. I don't see why Klipsch did not go with a more robust 3" or 4" cd with more HF extension for the Heritage Jubillees. For the asking price of the Jubilees, I feel like there could have been better quality components used.

 

The JBL 4367 and M2 speakers have much beefier cds for almost half the price of the Heritage Jubilees.

 

As @Travis In Austin mentioned earlier and as I have also heard @Chief bonehead state numerous times in person, the larger multi-way cinema systems are done purely for additional SPL for larger cinemas.  Also, other compression drivers will not be able to cover the same bandwidth to integrate properly with the Heritage Jubilee bass bin (340 Hz to 20 kHz).  The Axi2050 is plenty beefy for a home system and has plenty of HF extension when EQ'd by the DSP for the K-402.  As I stated earlier, I've measured the Heritage Jubilee in my home at both one meter and at the listening position.  The response is flat out to 20 kHz, both by the spec sheet and my own measurements.  The Cinema Grandeur is only rated flat (+/- 3 dB) to 19 Khz and is 10 dB down by 20 kHz.  The Cinema Grandeur does not have better HF extension than the Heritage Jubilee.

[MMurg]

Also, the Axi2050 does not a have a small diaphragm.  The AxiPeriodic annular diaphragm has a 5" voice coil.  The 108 dB sensitivity combined with 150/300 W power rating means it will handle any home sound application without breaking a sweat.

[OO1]

  the Axi 2050 diaphragm has a 175mm  diameter   , so closer to 7 inches   , 

 

The  dual 3 inch  JBL diaphragm used on the JBL 4367 is much older technology  and definitely not a beefier CD 

 

 

 

[Travis In Austin]

10 hours ago, diamonddelts said:

 

The compression drivers in the KPT Cinema Grandeur look to be much beefier than the Celestion Axi 2050 used with the Heritage Jubilee. I don't see why Klipsch did not go with a more robust 3" or 4" cd with more HF extension for the Heritage Jubillees. For the asking price of the Jubilees, I feel like there could have been better quality components used.

 

The JBL 4367 and M2 speakers have much beefier cds for almost half the price of the Heritage Jubilees.

Edit: Misread this, backward. Already answered - that large of a voice coil, as associated disprharm will translate to much, much lower distortion that a 3" or 4" CD. The problem was the directivity of a 3" or 4" CD (it is inherent in the geometry of a CD) until you have a patent pending external extended phase plug that gets around that shortcoming. So you have low distortion (Design Criterial No. 1) and controlled directivity (Design Cirterial No. 2) coupled with flat response (No. 3), in a 2-way. 

[diamonddelts]

For the price, why not a beryllium cd? 

[MMurg]

21 minutes ago, diamonddelts said:

For the price, why not a beryllium cd? 

 

As I already explained, they will not be able to cover the same bandwidth to integrate properly with the Heritage Jubilee bass bin (340 Hz crossover point).  They do not have the required low frequency capability, with most of them only going down to about 500 - 600 Hz.  The Axi2050 is rated down to 300 Hz.

[diamonddelts]

24 minutes ago, MMurg said:

 

As I already explained, they will not be able to cover the same bandwidth to integrate properly with the Heritage Jubilee bass bin (340 Hz crossover point).  They do not have the required low frequency capability, with most of them only going down to about 500 - 600 Hz.  The Axi2050 is rated down to 300 Hz.

Ok