Johnny dB Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Hi all, I've been reading this forum for some time, but have never posted before. I want to hear my '84 Klipschorns in a whole new way, but don't know where to start. Unfortunately, I'm pretty much in the dark when it comes to the world of tubes so I don't know what will improve sound quality more. They're currently being powered by an HK AVR90 receiver w/ Sony DVD/CD 5 disc and sounds decent, but I want to hear what I've been missing. I have approx. $800-$900 to spend on any upgrades. I have a few questions. What sounds better; a tube preamp connected to solid state amp, or solid state preamp hooked up to a tube amp? Or does this defeat the purpose? (I would like to get an older preamp or integrated amp that has phono so I can get my vinyl on.) What would improve sound quality more; a better CD player, ALK crossovers, McIntosh C28 w/ Music Hall 2.1 TT, Bottlehead Foreplay w/ a pair of Paramours, McIntosh C28 w/ a pair of Antique Sound Labs Wave 10, the Foreplay w/ the Wave 10s, or a Jolida 302B? All of these seem to be around what I'm willing to drop right now. I know if I run the Foreplay or Jolida, I'll have to run a phono preout box when I get a TT. Building the foreplays looks interesting and might give more insight on tubes. Or... should I just save my dough 'til I can afford better gear? (I'm jonesin to get some new stuff though... I mean it is almost 3:30 in the a.m. and I'm still scouring the internet for some info) Please any advice on this subject will be greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 The '84 Klipschorn crossover is not the best. The C26 and C27 sound quite a bit better than the C28 McIntosh preamp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 If you go to Al's site www.alkeng.com, look in the Klipsch section, he has complete plans, diagrams, parts and vendor lists, everything you need to build your own. This is an easy DIY project, even I was able to do it. You'll spend $200-250, he even has a low-cost option. Post for him in the older speakers section, there's some changes to the KHorns that started about your year. make sure the crossover is compatible with the drivers you've got. Also within your budget is a vintage integrated amp, Eico, Scott come to mind. I bought a 222C Scott for $150 on ebay, tuned it up a little, it's great. It's going to be tough to get into a pre and power deal for the budget you've got. read the older threads in the section for tons of info about running vintage gear. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triode Pete Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Boy, oh boy, I would definitely go the Bottlehead route with the 2A3 Paramours & the Foreplay pre-amp. Where else can you get a full tube (SET, too!!!) set-up for that amount of money. Plus, you have a sense of pride & ownership of building your own gear. Plus I hear they have great support & many Bottleheads "help-out" each other! I and many of my other friends have been down the solid state route with horns & we're all with tubes now. Owned & heard several McIntosh, Yamaha, etc. solid state gear with the Klipsch Heritage line. Once I heard a decent tube set-up, there was no turning back & no regrets whatsoever. Remember, you need milliwatts to drive the K-horns, and by far, the 1st watt is the most important. The triode tube is the simplest, most linear, naturally low distortion amplification device ever made. KISS with K-horns! Solid state amps are great with low efficient speakers. Remember the specs on solid state gear is at full power, not at one watt or less. Solid state amps typically measure poor and more importantly, sound poor (some say harsh w/ horns) at less than 1 watt due to IMD and other factors inherent in solid state designs. My $0.02, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 What do you think is missing? Tube pre works well with a good SS amp. All tube is a great sounding system. I know I'm going to get slammed here, but what are you using for IC's and speaker wire? Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny dB Posted January 31, 2003 Author Share Posted January 31, 2003 Well Danny, Unfortunately, I don't know what I'm missing if anything. Don't get me wrong I love the way my K-horns sound currently, but I want to know what all the brew-haha (is that how its spelled?) is with tubes and vinyl. When I first got them they were powered by an Adcom GFA 555, but I could hear no change when I just powered them w/ the receiver. The wire I'm running is Sound King 12 ga. (Superior Quality is what it says on the wire, whatever that entails) with generic screw-on gold banana jacks from parts-express on both ends. In regards to the other replies, I've decided to build the ALK crossovers. If all goes well I'll then take on the Foreplay Preamp. Has anyone heard the Foreplay w/ the Wave 10s? Thanks to all who has replied. Regards, John B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Johnny, I have a pair of ALK's that I am using with a pair of Lascala's. I went with the tube preamp, tube amp first them added the xovers. With that said the biggest change I heard was the pre and amp. The xovers added to the puzzle, but TO ME the front end made the most dramatic change. The Foreplay has gotten great reviews. After I bought the tube preamp I bought a pair of Waves 8. It was a good combination. I then got a bad case of upgrade fever and changed them out to a pair of Wright 3.5. This again made a very nice change. I was lucky because I had a Rega Planet 2000 cd player when I started all this. As luck would have it the night before I bought my Lascala's my Rega died. I had to use my old Onkyo. All that upgrade was for nothing. The dealer has been scrweing around with my Rega since Sept. I bought a Heart6000 cd player. My system is back. The dealer called me a couple of weeks ago to say my Rega is ready and I still haven't picked it up. I really don't miss it at all. I think you will hear the most improvement if you go with a preamp/amp change out first and then go with the xover. Good luck. I was where you are this time last year. Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny dB Posted January 31, 2003 Author Share Posted January 31, 2003 Danny, might I inquire as to what preamp and amp you're running. Thanks for your insight, I might go ahead and order the preamp from bottlehead since it takes a few weeks to get it and work on the crossovers simultaneously. I'm leaning towards the ASL Waves for tube power just to get my feet wet as you did. I'm getting pretty excited to tackle these DIY kits. Thanks for your help. John B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Johnny, Today I am using a AES-AE3 Preamp www.audioelectronic.com and pair of WrightSound WPA 3.5 mono blocks. www.wright-sound.com You do not have to spend this much to hear the tube sound. There are members on this board who can hook you up with Scott's, Echo, etc. I was lucky and had some cash laying around ( I had no house payment, car payment, etc. Instead of saving money to buy a house and furniture I spent it on Stereo equipment. From what other members are saying kits are a fun thing to do. I am going to upgrade the Wave 8 with better resistors and caps that came with it. Will this make a difference? I don't know. Seach this BB. Look for posts from NOS44, Dean, Mobile, Erik, etc. They will give you very good information. Go to http://www.audioasylum.com/ They have very good info. Dont Rush. I have more stuff (cables) laying around because I read something on the web and ordered it knowing that this was going to take me to audio bliss. Keep asking questions. There are some very good people on this board. Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfz28 Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Johnny, do you have your k-horns sealed to the walls?I have 84 k-horns too, for some reason they didnt come with the seals to seal them to the walls from the factory,Did yours come with them? I bought them new, either they didnt come with them or the dealer forgot to give them to me. Any way I sealed them to the walls and the bass output is tramendous over what it used to be. As for tube amps I have a scott 299a that Craig (nos440) tweeked out and it sounds real nice, really good with alblums, it has a hell of a phono section on it.You could pick one of these up on ebay and have Craig go through it and you would have a total of about 500 bucks in it.What I like about it it is an intergrated amp you wont need a preamp.This is my first tube amp so I really cant comment on any other tube amps because I havent listened to any of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Johnny, You've got Khorns. How much can you spend on some good amplification? You can get significantly better than an AV Receiver. Tubes are the way to go in my opinion. However, if you are only interested in HT, then an AV receiver is probably fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny dB Posted February 1, 2003 Author Share Posted February 1, 2003 Arfz28, yes my K-horns came with the seals intact and they are right up against the walls. I'm going to definately look into the Scott 299a, sounds exactly what I want to do. Have the tube sound and a phono input. Thanks Jmon, I have about $1000 to play with. I do enjoy HT, but I'm curious what I'm missing with the tube sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofy Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Johnny, who says you have to have only one system??!! I have 3 right now in my house. Sure it is a bit much on the family but they are used to it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Dont forget the EICO HF-81. Also, see the post about the Cary gear for sale. That combo for around $1000-1100 is VERY good. JMON is interested as well but could be an option if he doesnt go with it. See the post for details. Not sure if any of it has sold. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny dB Posted February 1, 2003 Author Share Posted February 1, 2003 awesome! thanks guys for your input. I will definately keep my options open. As far as running multiple systems I'll need to move into a larger home. I already have 3 systems, too! Klipsch in all of them. I went onto ebay and there's one Scott 299. Doesn't say if it's an A, B, or C. What is the difference in those? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiohead Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 I have to throw in a vote as well for the Eico HF-81. I was turned on to its awareness by Mobile the first month I joined this forum. This was a few months prior to the Scott units picking up quite a bit of discussion around here. It has worked absolute miracles with my Khorns and, if the Scott's are anything like it, I will have to try one of them as well in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny dB Posted February 2, 2003 Author Share Posted February 2, 2003 In case someone else was wondering about the differences in the Scott 299; I found it! "The 299 series of H.H. Scott amplifiers started with the original 299 which used four 12AX7 preamp tubes, two ECF80/6BL8 phase splitter tubes four 7189 output tubes and a GZ34 rectifier tube. The original amp had it's output transformers mounted in a row from the front of the amp to the rear. To the right of the output transformers is a row of 7189 output tubes going from front to rear. Later 299's changed the component layout to a side to side configuration with the four output tubes in front of the output transformers. The 299B was the second generation and along with the 299, it put out around 20 watts of power per channel. The third, and most versatile of the 299's was the C version. This one replaced the output tubes with the larger 7591A and could deliver around 30 watts per channel with both channels driven. You could eek out 40 watts from a single channel if the other was idle. The limiting factor keeping the 299C form delivering 40 watts per channel is it's power supply. This is the only of the 299 series with an adjustable center channel control concentrically mounted on the balance control. The 299C has two variants. One uses the 6U8 phase splitter and the other, older version uses the 7199 as a phase splitter. This is probably the best of the 299 series. The final 299 was the 299D. What is nice about this amp is that it has it's output tubes behind the output transformers. This makes for better heat dissipation and gives you more room to use tubes other then the small 7591A. All the 299 series are stellar performers, but due to their small physical size, they have always had problems with heat. Because of this, most need power supply capacitors and plate resistors right off the bat. As with any amp this old, you MUST replace the coupling capacitors and bias rectifier. The 299C should always have it's first filter capacitor replaced. This is the can near the rectifier and power transformer. Because of the amount of heat in that area, this capacitor likes to develop shorts." Thanks, Me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 I want to add one thing to the above post ! The original 299 A with the transformers along the side is prone to transformer failure !! I just had it happen to a customer ! Stay away unless the amp is real cheap !! It requires constant monitoring of the bias to insure it stays in a comfortable state. 299C/D are nice amps but I prefer the A/Bs the mid/bass are very pronounced with the 7591 tube and the highs are rolled off !! The EL84/7189 tube is just a sweeter sounding tube !! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 Hi Johnny, My situation was similar to yours. My Khorns are only a few years older than yours. I picked up my Scott 222D on eBay for about $250, Craig (NOS440) did most of the restoration of parts, but because my unit had factory wiring errors, he sent it to another member from the Scott forum who also has a 222D to see what's up. When I got her back, she sounded terriffic! I was worried about poor bass response and thought the 20wpc were not enough power to handle transients (my Adcom has 85wpc). Once I got the amp and listened, my worries evaporated. Bass response is cleaner, more vivid with the Scott. As for the power, it's peeeeelenty! And I do listen at ear-shattering volumes at times...over 95db. I noticed an improvement in clarity with the ALKs as well. However, I attended the So. Cal Horn Group meeting last night where I met Dr. Bruce Edgar, and he has planted some seeds about the Khorns shortcomings. We will be in contact, so as I get more info here, I will post and let you know. He hinted that we can improve them with time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 I have no problem with crossover MODS its a small section, of the k-horn, easily reversed! I myself might ALK mine, ive been tossing this around for a long time! Regards Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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