Schu Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 1 hour ago, Tom05 said: Do you think that you can hear direct radiating distortion at 18 to 40 hz ? . A well designed , and properly sized DR will not degrade a system at the lowest frequencies 🤓 Not only yes... Hell yes. Once you learn what to/how to listen... Intermodulation distortion with its time variable is fairly distinct to a signal that is more linear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Jenson Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 I am running the Klipschorns full range. I believe the 212/SX is integrated nicely as sound is present around and in front of me. There is no sense of any speaker standing out. I have not noticed any distortion since adding the SW. I never noticed any distortion with the Klipschorns before the REL either. The overall system clarity has improved with the SW. I am now able to understand words in songs that I could not make out without the lyrics pre 212/SX. Also, I listen to broadcast TV or any movies 4K etc at lower volumes since adding the REL. The Improved clarity has allowed me to listen at lower levels to actually hear more details. I would have loved to pick up the new Klipsch Horn SW but space did not allow for it. There is a new sense of satisfaction when experiencing music or video that I have not quite felt before. The Klipschorn and REL experience is other worldly. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom05 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 I’ll bet that On 2/19/2024 at 2:15 AM, D Jenson said: I am running the Klipschorns full range. I believe the 212/SX is integrated nicely as sound is present around and in front of me. There is no sense of any speaker standing out. I have not noticed any distortion since adding the SW. I never noticed any distortion with the Klipschorns before the REL either. The overall system clarity has improved with the SW. I am now able to understand words in songs that I could not make out without the lyrics pre 212/SX. Also, I listen to broadcast TV or any movies 4K etc at lower volumes since adding the REL. The Improved clarity has allowed me to listen at lower levels to actually hear more details. I would have loved to pick up the new Klipsch Horn SW but space did not allow for it. There is a new sense of satisfaction when experiencing music or video that I have not quite felt before. The Klipschorn and REL experience is other worldly. I’ll bet you’re system sounds fantastic, no doubt 🤓 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom05 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 8 hours ago, Schu said: Not only yes... Hell yes. Once you learn what to/how to listen... Intermodulation distortion with its time variable is fairly distinct to a signal that is more linear. I love bass horns, but the biggest benefits to them seem to be mostly absent in the 45hz and below range, I’m not alone in this observation. It’s no secret that a well designed DR with low excursion ( large surface area )and proper damping qualities can sound extremely good , and offer certain advantages in extension down low . I do agree that the ultimate solution may lie with the new Klipsch Hybrid vented designs , but very satisfying results can be achieved with a DR if thoughtfully implemented. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 3 hours ago, Tom05 said: I love bass horns, but... very satisfying results can be achieved with a DR if thoughtfully implemented. without entering into a circular logic semantic debate, like I said... it's a Band-Aid. I think a lot of the issues for many can stem from implementation as opposed to the outright disdain of direct radiation... that being said, DR's are more alike than they are different from each other. One is just about as good as another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjptkd Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 2 hours ago, Schu said: DR's are more alike than they are different from each other. One is just about as good as another. OK, that's gotta be about the dumbest thing I've read all morning- come on man! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 not if you try and use your think meat and look at it in terms of class of product... direct radiating versus horn-loaded. don't you feel inadequate now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82 Cornwalls Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 On 2/19/2024 at 7:41 AM, Tom05 said: but very satisfying results can be achieved with a DR if thoughtfully implemented. Yes, but when expectation bias is part of the horn subwoofer experience then different becomes better. 🙂 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Jenson Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 I agree with your statement about expectation bias. That is why I always listen for weeks at a time before making a final decision. Buyer bliss fades and the "truth" sets in. Can you sit for hours and listen without hearing fatigue. Do you want to listen for hours at a time and find it hard to stop listening. Your body will tell you the truth over time. The addition of the REL212/SX to my Khorns has put me in the state of not wanting to stop listening again. The improvement is so noticeable that I feel I need to listen to all of my music again to hear what I was missing before listening with the REL. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fido Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Its so interesting how many people on this Forum think that only horn loaded subs sound good. My HSU DR sub sounded good but the REL S812 sounds MUCH better to my ears. PLENTY of fast clean and deep bass that blends perfectly with my Forte IVs. Interesting how many people that have never heard a high level connected REL Sub assume that all DR subs suck!!!! LOL 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom05 Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 I think a lot of people confuse intermodulation distortion with the ringing of a underdamped subwoofer . A well designed low frequency DR can sound great , the Cornwall IV is a good example.🤓 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 On 2/18/2024 at 9:33 PM, Tom05 said: Do you think that you can hear direct radiating distortion at 18 to 40 hz ? . A well designed , and properly sized DR will not degrade a system at the lowest frequencies 🤓 There was actually a pretty good scientific study on this. They found that if they injected music with harmonic distortion on the bass, at the lowest frequencies it literally took around 100% harmonic distortion before people thought something wasn't quite right. Intermodulation distortion is arguably a different story but a decent amount of harmonic distortion largely centered on the second harmonic is just going to blend in. It's interesting how people will argue against that and worry about harmonic distortion on the bass but then turn around and purposely get tube amps that often have 2-10% harmonic distortion on the second harmonic and think that it's pleasing to the ear. Biggest problem I've heard as it pertains to this issue with subs is that cheaper subs that have cabinets that are too small will often ring and sound colored plus some have limiters that aren't linear in terms of frequency response. The end result is that when you spank them you can get distortion artifacts and unnatural response that is well above 100 hz which is very localizeable and sounds like crap. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 On 2/22/2024 at 1:07 PM, Fido said: Interesting how many people that have never heard a high level connected REL Sub assume that all DR subs suck!!!! LOL What's interesting to me is that people fall for that marketing gimmick. You can actually make any subwoofer accept high level inputs in a superior manner by investing in a Jensen transformer. I can't confirm but multiple people have said that all REL is doing is using a resistor. If this method were that much better you'd hear tons of people singing the praises about those transformers. But you don't. You've probably never heard it mentioned a single time. What you do hear is people singing the praises of REL's cheap resistor setup or whatever it is due to their marketing. Not to mention that this method is worthless in a home theater setup. It doesn't make any sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 On 2/19/2024 at 1:15 AM, D Jenson said: I am running the Klipschorns full range. I believe the 212/SX is integrated nicely as sound is present around and in front of me. There is no sense of any speaker standing out. The overall system clarity has improved with the SW. I am now able to understand words in songs that I could not make out without the lyrics pre 212/SX. Yeah I'm curious about this. You actually have to search pretty hard to find material where voice bleed into the subwoofers with an 80 hz crossover. With movies about the only one I could find was where the little girl was talking to Don Luis in Colombiana in the opening scene. The vast majority of voices ought to never even touch a sub. So I'm curious as to how a subwoofer helps with voices that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 On 2/7/2024 at 2:03 AM, D Jenson said: All I know is, everyone noticed significant differences between the low and high level sound presentation in a number of songs listened to over a 2-3 week period. We all liked the high level connection better, YMMV. What happens in my opinion is that the high level inputs allows higher frequencies through more. The sense of a "fast" subwoofer actually comes from the midrange, it's not sub-bass. The people I've talked to in the past were comparing a high level full range signal, to a low level signal that had been ran through a crossover. IF you do that then also have a crossover on the subwoofer, the crossover slope will be steeper than intended, and it's going to sound bloated and sluggish, with none of the faint upper harmonics which makes a subwoofer sound more musical. I've never bought one but that's what I suspect is happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82 Cornwalls Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 49 minutes ago, Paducah Home Theater said: What happens in my opinion is that the high level inputs allows higher frequencies through more. FWIW Sorry but I'm not buying your arguments in this and the other posts. Been using speaker inputs on subwoofers long before I ever heard of REL. People I know that prefer speaker inputs were comparing full signal/no filter before the subwoofer x-o with either low or high level inputs. REL allows the use of LFE and speakon for those that have their HT and music system together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fido Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 I use my sub for music and ht. I don’t always analyze everything about my stereo components. I am usually drawn to whatever sounds best to my ears, only. The HSU sub I had provided great deep bass and sounded good with HT but the REL blends better with my Forte IVs then my HSU ever did when listening to music. Maybe the REL hype is just that but… the REL sub disappears and you only hear the Fortes with that deep lower register no t present without the sub. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.