Daughter Was Deployed Today

[whell]

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/index.html

For those of you still skeptical about Iraq's ability to mass produce and deliver WOMD, feel free to visit the above site. Plently of documentation here of Iraq's capabilities, as verified by the UN inspection teams following the Gulf War, and US and British intelligence.

No "could's, might's, or maybe's" here, folks. The weapons are there. They have used them previously, they have the capability to mass produce and deliver, and their ties and support of terrorists who have involvement in previous attacks on Western targets is also documented in the following locations:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/decade/sect5.html

http://www.terrorismanswers.com/groups/abunidal.html

Will post other documentation shortly.

[Deang]

"Mr. Bush is unique in this regard of divining the direction of our nation through the Word of God..."

Seriously Mark, there is nothing unique about this. Think about it. There is no way a person can separate out their belief system from their decision making.

At any rate, if he were really driving the direction of the nation using the Word of God -- he wouldn't be doing this.

"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world...Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice. But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness."

http://www.castlebar.ie/news/printer_no_to_the_iraq_war.html

And it's one, two, three, What are we fighting for?

Don't ask me, I don't give a damn, Next stop is Vietnam;

And it's five, six, seven,

Open up the pearly gates,

Well there ain't no time to wonder why,

Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

The only thing men learn from history, is that men never learn from history.

Klipsch Out.

[HDBRbuilder]

I just stopped in to see if you guys were still atop your political/ideological soapboxes, spouting off at each other. Yep...you still are! No big surprise there!

Gregorious,

If by chance(highly doubtful, though!), you have NOT become THOROUGHLY DISGUSTED with what this thread of yours has been transformed-into, and are still monitoring it...Can you tell me if your daughter is currently at FT Sill, OK? It seems that is where "the powers that be" want me to be prepared to go shortly...LOL! If she is there I will look her up and say "Hi!" Let me know, either way, ok?

[mobile homeless]

Andy...unlike the General Questions forum, this has been a more productive exchange and I think VERY worthwhile. I believe some of the points and issues raised here are valid, worthwhile, and important, with the relavancy question answered especially given the subject matter. In the past, I have looked down on some of these discussions within this forum, mainly because the content was so poor. In this instance, I think it's warranted and perhaps NEEDED given the circumstances, besides, more often than not, mdeneen has risen to the occassion, certainly with more patience than I have been able to muster. Most of the opposing view has been poorly argued with more troubling generalizations, bordering on a complete misunderstanding of what America even stands for. Reading some of these posts has been an eye opening experience for me. I have almost stared in disbelief at the comments and generalizations. The "love it or leave it" mantra moved it to subterranian levels.

Ironically, I think we have gotten off the main point here in that I fully believe this war to be a political one involving smoke and mirrors from this administration as they took the horror of 9-11 and transplanted it out of thin air to Saddam Hussein and Iraq, thereby pulling the proverbial wool over a good portion of the Country's eyes. Can anyone really remember when this bait and switch took place? When we were full bent in chase of Osama bin Laden and al Quida? Somewhere around election time, Saddamn and Iraq became a focus with this Weapons of Mass Destruction foil. And after a brief while, the public was up in arms with all the aggression from bin Laden/9-11/and al Quida now msteriously transplanted to Saddam and Iraq.

The transparency here is amazing, yet for some reason, it remains a hidden move to many within our shores. Sadly, people thought it was political suicide to question this. But this amazing SWITCHEROO was nothing short of brilliant and it played into the average American's ignorance on the matter, with an excellent reliance on the generalization of all the Middle East into one entity, using the fear factor combined with a basic naive sense of the unknown. It was an amazing move ...and all the more amazing in that it's seemed to have worked.

More than a few have questioned this sudden switch but mainly to deaf ears. Meanwhile, our nation is using the public access channels to run these "what to do" alert infomercials featuring duct tape, plastic wrap, power bars, and plenty of pet food for your loved ones....

kh

[HDBRbuilder]

Kelly,

Kinda a long post to me explaining your intent to keep posting in a place that CERTAINLY began its life with NO INTENT to become a collection of political/ideological-spouting individuals atop soapboxes, isn't it? It would have been much easier to type: "Andy, I am enjoying this ridiculous discussion in an inappropriate thread, and intend to continue posting here!" Dontcha think?

[feido35]

I was beginning to think you were a very intelligent person mdeneen; then you insert a comment like-

" We essentially gave up looking for the real enemy, Osama, because it was HARD."

You have posted many wonderful comments even though I do not agree with most of them. But, do you really believe we have essentially given up in our search for Osama? I know we have shifted the focus (to the public eye) on a more immenent danger due to having a plethora of WOMD. While we, the people, are sitting on chat boards dumping our opinions about Iraq and the so-called threat to the world, the Gov't is attentively waiting for the knucklehead Osama to make the grave mistake of revealing himself...which he will do in time.

We've seen what can be done when we are not proactive. Are there underlying reasons for ousting Saddam? Yes. But, I still think it needs to happen. Just as we need to focus on N. Korea and their nuc program. We don't need to 'flex' the american muscle all over the world, just to flex. However; since we do have the best economy (sucks right now), and the resources to eliminate evil wrong-doers that pose a threat to Americans and other countries, allies...human beings...we should damn well flex.

Imagine this...we let Saddam do whatever the hell he wants, keep the blinders on and pay him or any other wrong-doer no mind...folks all over the world would say "look at those stingy f'ing Americans. They have all this power and muscle, but they just sit on their duffs and let evil people enihilate innocent folk"

I ask anyone- is that a much better stance?

[mobile homeless]

That was a rather shallow and tepid response, Andy. It basically showed you didnt even read the post. I do see your point regarding the purpose of this forum, yet I believe this exchange to be a very important one. Unfortunately, I have noticed a basic lack of close reading skills almost across the board although I now believe this exchange is actually doing some good. We apparently have a large number reading this thread, and while many might be looking for carnage, more than a few might be taking some good points. It surely hasnt been without trying. I will have to say that tossing aside political beliefs, many of mdeneen's statements have been more compelling. Even a few of the retorts have been ok with many showing some movement to try to reason instead of relying on stereotypical responses. But there is nothing I dislike more than someone honing an argument down to a point that misses entirely and fails to address the meat of the argument. Of course, a pithy retort is always amusing if laced with truth.

kh

[HDBRbuilder]

Kelly,

I certainly did read and understand your post (I have pretty damned good reading-comprehension skills, BTW...LOL!)...I was just "toungue in cheek" responding to it!...in the hopes that a few of you would wake up and smell the coffee...NOT!

Just one point to interject here...this post began on a far different note than what it has become...and I want to let you soapbox-standers know a little secret:

Gregorious' daughter, like the vast majority of American soldiers, doesn't give a flying f*ck about the political/ideological opinions espoused in this thread. Neither is she, along with the vast majority of the rest of American soldiers, wanting anything other than peace! For the vast majority of soldiers, a war is the last thing they want...but it is their job, if called upon!! So they go!! They do their duty...and some of them don't come home! That is the way things are...and nothing any of you spout-off about will ever change that! It is for us to support those soldiers, whether we like the situation that puts them in harm's way or not! That is what they need... to be able to do... what they have to do...SUPPORT! Very FEW of them want to be where they have to go...trust me on this...but they are going and bullcrap like this thrown into this particular thread, is inappropriate at best! I can't see how I can be much clearer than that!

[feido35]

First, I ask myself every time I start typing "how did I get sucked in to this exchange of opinion and absurd posting"...but I did...and I'll continue. For the love of our freedom to do so.

Yes, you caught me slipping mdeneen. I used a figure of speech when saying "the Gov't is attentively waiting...". I believe we are in persuit, actively using the many resources and intelligence our government has to track this bastard and put his head on a stick.

Since we are the super-power I eluded to earlier, we are also looking to liberate the Saddam as we continue our search for bastard.

Likewise, you are far more intelligent to think and say this...

"He owes us Osama -- the culprit - before defining a new list of enemies."

SO, we are to wait until we get Osama before we go after other wrong-doers? Rather than taking your comment and running it in to the ground, I'm going to assume that I caught you slipping too.

Regarding my hypothetical scenario I laid out in my last exchange- you did a wonderful job running that into the ground. I wasn't trying to pass my scenario as an argument...merely making a statement to see how it settled in this community of opinionators (no...it's not a real word). Nor was I suggesting that's what has happened in the past.

However, didn't you make a statement in the past about the no fly zones and how worthless they were in protecting anyone from Iraq? I could be mistaken or could have possibly removed this from context...but I don't believe I have. This being the case, you say it's a waste in one breath, then turn around and use that as evidence that we're taking proactive means to contain bastard#2.

Sorry...have deadlines on work stuff...I'd love to continue...but I'm sure I'll have the opportunity to retort at a later time.

[Deang]

Mark is right on with everything he has said, and I'm astounded that with all the gripping logic, it has failed to take hold.

Forget the complexities involved with the issue, and just focus on the obvious.

Hussein has WOMD -- what the hell are we doing sending anybody in there? You don't think this clown is going to use them? We back him into a corner and this is going to get ugly fast. You think Israel is going to sit this one out after he launches an Anthrax laced scud into Jerusalem? Think Syria is sleepwalking through this? Turkey, Greece, and Saudi Arabia? Can you say dubya dubay dubya III?

Since Saudi won't cooperate in our endeavor to root terrorists out of their society -- we now feel the need to potentially off a million people so we can have a presence in the Middle East.

One more thing. The chances of Hussein and the secular Baath Party doing ANYTHING to help out the Wahhabis, or that the Wahhabis would take a single dime from Hussein -- is about 0%

[RangerSix]

This attitude absolutely pisses me off. I am fed up with the idea/attitude that dissenting opinions are "unamerican" or "treason". <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

No more than your attitude pisses me off (along with a few others). We've been at war for a year and a half and it's important that we show unity. IMO dissenters do a disservice to our miliary's morale in the field and toward our governments resolution to eliminate terror whereever it may exist. You're a cancer.

It's not that showing loyalty and respect to one's country is a dirty word, but the acceptance of what BushCo says at face value, without questioning it, IS. NOT questioning our leaders is unamerican. Remember, absolute power corrupts - absolutely. Questioning the leadership is not only our right as citizens, it is our responsibility. The minute that right is lost, I AM outta here.

Youre right, but I think I said that earlier in a previous post. While I encourage healthy criticism of our government and its leaders, I also feel it's time we as Americans come together and show unity and strength against those who would do us harm.

The problem I have is the oppositions automatic knee jerk acceptance that the Bush administration is doing something wrong or underhanded without the facts to support it.

Beleive it or not, my wife and I have actually discussed the idea of moving out of the US - something we would not have considered two short years ago.

Honestly, what has radically happened in the US that would warrant moving to another country? Now, if you made that comment from 1993 to 2000, I wouldve understood.

In my eyes, the minute the planes hit the towers and the nation began the "lockdown", the terrorists were in "the end zone". They are winning because we are reacting out of pure fear. Losing civil liberties in the name of security plays right into the hands of the terrorists. Fear sells - if you don't beleive this, wait until election '04. This citizen isn't buying.

No offence, but your previous champion in the Oral Office set many of the conditions that caused our present state of affairs. As far as elections go, I think the people spoke loud and clear during the last November election.

It's very comforting to know that BushCo has our best interests at heart.

Condescending attitude aside, have you even given him and this administration a chance? I think they do have our best interest at heart.

Bull$hit.

I agree, your comments are bull$hit.

Ranger----I thought officers in The Regular Army were supposed to keep their politics to themselves. This ain't Mexico. As a soldier you're an instrument of policy but you should have no voice in what that policy is.

Genius comment idiot. The military is not a bunch of mindless monkeys. We are citizens of this country as much as you are. We have opinions, and within reason, have every right to voice those opinions. However, I will say that if my comments towards the Commander and Chief were as vitriolic as yours is, then I would refrain from making it known on this public forum.

Not that I blame you for favoring war, it's your trade afterall,

Where did I say that I favored war?

but the tradition we have of soldiers steering publicly clear of politics (at least until AFTER they've whipped the British, Indians, Mexicans, Confederates or Germans and retired from the Army) has served us well. Our distrust of standing armies is one of the finest things we inherited from the English.

Steering clear of politics and expressing an opinion are two different things. I support my C-n-C, and as I said earlier, if did negatively question the current administrations foreign policies, then I would refrain from making it known here. In the future, dont pretend to preach military policy to me. Youre in my territory now and your pseudo intellectual rants are not wanted here.

The basic ignorance and amazing lack of understanding of what America stands for is SO strong in this statement, it is absolutely bordering on tragic. The hypocrisy and contradiction here is absolutely staggering. How can one be any more in the dark?

In the immortal words of Dr. Evil - R I G H T!

Ranger, do you know much about how America started or the foundation of its existence including the very tenets and documents which describe this foundation?

Warning!!! Dont let you elitist arrogant attitude lead you to make smug comments. Youre on dangerous ground here.

I thought this notion of "Love it or Leave it" was only suitable for parody on Saturday Night Live and late night talk shows (not to mention the wonderful job done by Carroll O'Conner in the early 70s).

To you its comedic parody; to me its a way of life. Years ago, I made a commitment to serving my country. I hate when other denigrate this great country of ours without lifting a finger to improve upon it. What have you done for your country today? (Beside condescending comments of the Internet.)

I never thought I would see this type of gibberish uttered with a straight face, especially in this day. Have we not progressed?

Progressed to what? Making glib remarks against our government on the Internet?

The fact that this person and aforementioned mindset is possibly representing this country overseas in times of diplomacy makes one understand why other countries hold Americans with such disdain.

As if you would know little man. I would dare you to make those ridiculous comments about me to the residents in the little town of Kottsmandorf in Bayern, Deutschland, or my friends in Hokkaido, Japan, or even my surfing bradas on the North Shore. Before you start insulting people you dont know, its better to get your facts straight first.

Ranger, why don't you analyze what "Love it or Leave it" means ultimately, especially in reference to America. Let it twirl within your skull - what is it actually saying? This forum never ceases to amaze me. Of course, the HL Mencken quote rings true, but passed over heads like a Dennis Miller reference in Yiddish.

ROTFLMAO What a smug and arrogant little prick you are. Throughout this entire thread you have been condescending and insulting to others that share a different opinion from you. You make yourself out to be so intellectually enlightened while generalizing the rest of us as simple-minded knuckle dragging troglodytes. Continue to stick your head in the sand. Go ahead and raise your banner high against war. Continue to thumb your nose to those that you perceive to be intellectually in the dark. Keep telling yourself that appeasement is the way to go. Al Qaeda thanks you.

[mobile homeless]

Ranger, first of all, before you attempt to fuddle with posting using the editor, could you at least work on the formatting to make it readable? We dont need the color coding. A simple italic symbol would work or perhaps some quotes. As is, your post is barely legible, apparently rendered in 7 pt text.

I have been reading your reactions and statements over in General Questions for awhile and I have to say you take the cake in that domain. You responses show little insight nor understanding of the complexities of the situation in the Middle East, nor a real understanding of what America stands for. You still show not one shred of comprehension pertaining to the irony and hyprocrisy of telling someone to "love it or leave it" thereby illustrating a basic ignorance of the tenets surrounding the very country you are supposedly defending. How might the words "love it or leave it" compare to your views of Saddam's Iraq? Can you make the comparison?

Your writing is far more offensive in calling people "a cancer","prick", and "genius comment idiot" and is another example of hypocrasy and irony. It's one thing to lambast the ignorance of some of the statements, pointing out the inability to actually answer points without using cliche, and quite another to call one a "Cancer" or "prick." "Love of leave it" is perhaps the most "un-American" statement I can think of and goes againt most of what you are fighting for. Personally, I think your statements give our country and armed forces a bad name. They are throwbacks to an era that had little tolerance and showed even less understanding for ideas more complex than "might is right" and "America: Love it or leave it".

On the other hand, the one thing I noticed from that "Music to Bomb" thread was that debating with you is a lose-lose situation and an ugly one at that.

If you fail to see the dinstinctions I made in discussing the movement and shift from al-Qaeda and bin Laden to Saddam/Iraq and the political use of the very same, then so be it. Again, the slight of hand is lost while the misdirection is taken.

kh

[whell]

Deang

"Hussein has WOMD -- what the hell are we doing sending anybody in there? You don't think this clown is going to use them? We back him into a corner and this is going to get ugly fast. You think Israel is going to sit this one out after he launches an Anthrax laced scud into Jerusalem? Think Syria is sleepwalking through this? Turkey, Greece, and Saudi Arabia? Can you say dubya dubay dubya III?"

Are you serious? It is precisely because he has them that we are going in there. There was a war in 1991, following which he promised to disarm and destroy his WOMD capability. He did not. We sent in inspectors. He still did not. We passed UN resolution 1441 and sent in more inspectors. He still did not.

In the meantime, he has been developing relationships with a host of unsavory characters who have the desire to see the United States cease to exist, or at least casue us great harm. These relationships are designed to enable these groups to operate with impunity and carry out their plans to create murder and mayhem on a global scale, including the potential use of WOMD.

We are going in there to force required disarmamemnt (and mdeneen, here is the "authority" you were looking for) as intended by UN Resolution 1441. This is the will of the world via the UN Security Council, not just "dubya".

Why do these individuals wish to see harm done to the United States? I've heard alot of anti-US rhetoric on this point. I think the best and most concise assessment I've heard comes from former Clinton advisor Dick Morris. They hate the US and what it represents for 4 key reasons:

1. Our freedom of religion

2. Our freedom of speech

3. Our treatment of women as something more than a sex object

4. Our nation as a haven for members of the Jewish community

Thus, we are a target. We best get on with the task of pre-emptive strikes, or we will see more 9/11 type attacks. Maybe not all on that grand scale, but ONE loss of American life within our borders at the hands of terrorists is worth ANY investment in time, equipment and resources to prevent it, IMHO.

A great precedent in my opinion, for US/UN intervention in Iraq is the Isreali attack on Iraq's Osiraq nuclear reactor in 1981, just before it went on-line. We now know for certain that Saddam Hussein's plans to build a French-supplied reactor at his nuclear research center at Tuwaitha, about 20 kilometers from Baghdad, were designed to produce militarily significant amounts of plutonium. There was no other purpose. The Iraqi objective was "simply" to manufacture nuclear weapons that could provide Saddam with regional dominance and - if necessary - with the implements of atomic warfighting.

Iraq's objectives have not changes one iota since 1981, by the way.

[rowooo]

Mdeneen....Not once in this, shall we say lengthy thread, have I claimed I support this war. The Saddam=Hitler,Iraq=Germany,MiddleEast=WWII Europe statements are just as absurd to me as they are to you. I don't feel the least bit threatened by Saddam. I'm a realist and am not blinded into believing all this inflated potency these terrorist hold. All this duct tape, plastic teepees, and duracell crap has me shaking my head in disbelief. The media does indeed portray these wackos as being almost superhuman, untouchable, and as organized and lethal as the 101st airborne. I really don't even fear that stooge in North Korea. I don't care how idiotic people think this guy is does anyone actually think he would TRY to launch a nuclear weapon into Japan, South Korea, or even The Left coast of the U.S. Even if this wack got one missle Launched, doubt it, we would be talking parking lot in 15 minutes. As hard as it is to believe, these murderous, butcher type, lunatics are NOT suicidal. Don't be so scared people, seriously. O.K. Medeneen you carefully chose and answered a couple of my questions. Although I will not answer your dead end, elementary question on COST, I would like an answer on the following--"He doesn't want to for some complicated psychology that nobody else is privy to. It could be so simple as preserving his Daddys legacy by removing the big stain dripping all over it. It could be that simple." Yes or NO.....do you honestly believe that???? Also did you support the war in Bosnia? And finally, Vietnam, did you not support this war from the onset? And yes I have heard of the Cuban Missle crisis. Deang, if this war does proceed, were talking days here, not anthrax transporting warheads, a million deaths, and a drawn out campaign, just ask Mdeneen, we'll be out of there faster than you can say Afghanistan.

[RangerSix]

[NOSValves]

You know that is what gets me about the ney sayers . Its not like US and the UN haven't been after Saddam to get rid of these weapons for the last 12 years or more . I'm not the least bit suprised at Bush's action against Saddam. I said this very thing right after we nocked the sh!t out of the taliban and Asama's wanna be army. If the previous administration had any balls at all they would of came down on him when he threw the Inspectors out back in 96 ! Oh no that was Clinton he can do no wrong !! Oh they broke there sease fire aggreement oh well I think I'll wet another cigar on Monica !!

Saddam only understands one thing Force ! There is no other solution. If the man had any kind of rational thinking with 200,000 american troops amassing around his country he would give up the weapons that the entire world knows he has ! This is all he has to do to end this entire conflict why is Bush to balme for what Saddam will not do ? This tells me there is no way he will ever give them up short of going in and taking them away from him. What other possible solution is there ? Baby sit the dam country forever will this get rid of them ? Let him keep abusing his people ? Let him keep killing anyone that doesn't aggree with him ? Wait till he either gives some WOMD to terrorist or they steal it from him ! Who's to say he wasn't where the anthrax that hit many places after 9/11 came from no one has replied to this points I posed many times !

Mark,

The answer to your cost question. I don't care what it cost I want that man out of office and these weapons destroyed !! 1 Trillion or 10 Trillion it just doesn't matter to me !! I also think this is the path to eventually catching Asama !! Scare the sh!t out of every country where he could possibly be hiding let the world know we mean business !! Sooner or later he to will make a mistake !! We will nab him sooner or later !!

Craig

[rowooo]

I can almost guarantee that antrax came from the East Coast of the United States.

[RangerSix]

[RangerSix]

----------------

On 2/27/2003 5:47:30 PM mobile homeless wrote:

You responses show little insight nor understanding of the complexities of the situation in the Middle East, nor a real understanding of what America stands for. You still show not one shred of comprehension pertaining to the irony and hyprocrisy of telling someone to "love it or leave it" thereby illustrating a basic ignorance of the tenets surrounding the very country you are supposedly defending. How might the words "love it or leave it" compare to your views of Saddam's Iraq? Can you make the comparison?

Your writing is far more offensive in calling people "a cancer","prick", and "genius comment idiot" and is another example of hypocrasy and irony. It's one thing to lambast the ignorance of some of the statements, pointing out the inability to actually answer points without using cliche, and quite another to call one a "Cancer" or "prick." "Love of leave it" is perhaps the most "un-American" statement I can think of and goes againt most of what you are fighting for. Personally, I think your statements give our country and armed forces a bad name. They are throwbacks to an era that had little tolerance and showed even less understanding for ideas more complex than "might is right" and "America: Love it or leave it".

On the other hand, the one thing I noticed from that "Music to Bomb" thread was that debating with you is a lose-lose situation and an ugly one at that.

If you fail to see the dinstinctions I made in discussing the movement and shift from al-Quida and bin Laden to Saddam/Iraq and the political use of the very same, then so be it. Again, the slight of hand is lost while the misdirection is taken.

kh

----------------

So my answers show little understanding to the complexities to the Midddle East? Okay, if you say so.

Out of respect to the original spirit of this thread I'm walking away from this waste of time. I've said my piece.

Aloha!

[TBrennan]

Well now I wonder if this "Ranger" fella really is an Army officer. He evidently doesn't have the discretion to be a good one. Of course when on the internet one can pretend to be anything, anything at all. One can even pretend to be a Domer.