Daughter Was Deployed Today

[HDBRbuilder]

Mdeneeen...I guess you are referring to the "I may be stupid..." remark? Well...I may be stupid, but I also have enough class to know where certain things OUGHT TO BE SAID, and WHERE THEY DO NOT BELONG...and, BTW...FYI..I am also a graduate of the Army NBC Defense Course(that means Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical weapons defense course in case your low-class moronic self-serving mind can't figure that out)...and want to know something else? I was an Army Intelligence officer for a time not so very long ago and was privy to alot more than you will EVER know about Iraq!! And...I don't spout off about what I DO NOT know! DUH!!

Oh...why did I say "low-class moronic self-serving mind"? Pretty simple...those of you who took this thread and turned it into your personal political/ideological soapboxes ALL are of that type of mind, IMHO!!!!! Touche'

[AndyKubicki]

A few days ago, when I was making my deliveries (I work for Fedex), I had the honor to make a delivery to someone who was obviously a vet. He was a Marine. His garage (nicely kept) was full of military items and many pictures. On one picture was what was left of a blown up tank. I asked him if that was from Desert Storm. He said "yes". I asked if it was one of their tanks. He said "yes, and it was my chopper that got em!". He signed for the delivery and I said "right on!" and gave him a thumbs up, though I must say, it was humbling.

Andy, go git em and bring yourself back safely, and maybe even bring back a similar picture. Thanks for doing this for us all...and Craig, thank your son, Greg, thank your daughter for me. Know that everybody supports you.

I need to get another flag to show support...it's a small act, but it's the least I can do.

[Audible Nectar]

Point One:

"This attitude absolutely pisses me off. I am fed up with the idea/attitude that dissenting opinions are "unamerican" or "treason". "

Ranger said:

'No more than your attitude pisses me off (along with a few others). We've been at war for a year and a half and it's important that we show unity. IMO dissenters do a disservice to our miliary's morale in the field and toward our governments resolution to eliminate terror whereever it may exist. You're a cancer.'

I see we completely disagree on this topic. In my mind, the cancer is the freedoms given up daily in the name of safety and security. This will continue unabated until this so-called-war on terrorism ends. How long must this continue?? As long as this war lasts?? I got news for all of you - it may not end during your lifetime (see the war on drugs). Both wars have about the same chance of success too (at least by current methods used) - none.

Point two:

"It's not that showing loyalty and respect to one's country is a dirty word, but the acceptance of what BushCo says at face value, without questioning it, IS. NOT questioning our leaders is unamerican. Remember, absolute power corrupts - absolutely. Questioning the leadership is not only our right as citizens, it is our responsibility. The minute that right is lost, I AM outta here."

Ranger said:

'Youre right, but I think I said that earlier in a previous post. While I encourage healthy criticism of our government and its leaders, I also feel it's time we as Americans come together and show unity and strength against those who would do us harm.'

But I will not do so with blind loyalty. If I believe it is wrong, I cannot sit idly by without expressing an opinion. There is a distinction to be made here - I wish no harm or "lack of success" to our service personnel, nor do I hold those people responsible for the decisions made by the commander-in-chief. It's not the rank and file that I am questioning, it's the leadership. If questioning the leadership during a time of war is somehow unacceptable to you, sorry. I guess that since this "war on terror" will last decades, we cannot question the commander in chief until it is over. Again, sorry - no decades long free rides are issued here.

Point three:

'The problem I have is the oppositions automatic knee jerk acceptance that the Bush administration is doing something wrong or underhanded without the facts to support it.'

There ARE facts to support this. From a world view, the US is perceived as a resource-hogging bully. It is impossible for me to ignore oil as a big part of the equation here. I do not believe the argument that the war in Iraq is simply to rid the world of "bad guys" - North Korea is infinitely more dangerous than Iraq IMO - but since NK doesn't have the goldmine for Dick Cheney's Halliburton to develop, it's not as important to the administration right now. As always, it's about the money that developing those oil reserves will bring.

I also ask the administration why we are not taking more serious actions to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. Instead of being asked to reduce our consumption, we keep building bigger and bigger vehicles which use more and more oil. The answer is easy: Would you expect a businessman to ask his customers to purchase less of what he is selling?? Given the CEO/oil backgrounds of those in the Bush administration, it's fairly easy to see the business motive here (and after all, as always in America, it's about the money).

Point Four:

"Beleive it or not, my wife and I have actually discussed the idea of moving out of the US - something we would not have considered two short years ago."

Ranger responded:

'Honestly, what has radically happened in the US that would warrant moving to another country? Now, if you made that comment from 1993 to 2000, I wouldve understood.'

Ahhhhh, the Clinton slam - as if I were Clinton's biggest supporter. You got that one wrong - very wrong.

While I did vote for Clinton (and later Al Bore), that was a selection of "the better of two poor choices". Clinton has certainly done his share to irritate me: continued erosion of the Bill of Rights through the escalation of the drug war, lack of backbone on health care issues, NAFTA, and general waffling to keep the centrists happy, instead of standing firm for his supposed beliefs. The mistake Clinton made was not fessing up to his sexual misdeeds - but even if Clinton had fessed up to this immediately, that was no guarantee that Repubs would not have found something else to hassle him about. Oh, I almost forgot: Whitewater. So if Clinton's supposed profits re Whitewater were a concern, why have we heard little on the BushCo oil angle?? Civil servants making decisions based on their own personal future gains is wrong, in either case. They are civil servants, not self servants.

Point Five:

"In my eyes, the minute the planes hit the towers and the nation began the "lockdown", the terrorists were in "the end zone". They are winning because we are reacting out of pure fear. Losing civil liberties in the name of security plays right into the hands of the terrorists. Fear sells - if you don't beleive this, wait until election '04. This citizen isn't buying."

Ranger responded:

'No offence, but your previous champion in the Oral Office set many of the conditions that caused our present state of affairs. As far as elections go, I think the people spoke loud and clear during the last November election.'

As previously stated, Clinton isn't the end-all/be-all prez, but I ask you this: do you suppose that Clinton would have had more time and energy to focus on OBL and other matters if he weren't so wrapped up in self defense re Lewinsky?? I find it very convenient that the Repubs sought to oust Clinton at every turn - but now that Bush is prez, no one can even question his policies (let alone personal motives)???

Point six:

"It's very comforting to know that BushCo has our best interests at heart."

Ranger responded:

'Condescending attitude aside, have you even given him and this administration a chance? I think they do have our best interest at heart.'

I did hold out hope (once elected) that Bush's "compassionate conservatism" was more than a buzzword - kinda like "digital ready" speakers. But I've seen the agenda of the religious right wing, and I'm not interested. Kinda like eating a bad hamburger - you might try it once, but once you discover the restaurant sucks, you don't go back there.

Bush cares little of the plight of working people in this country. He's all for the corporation. Rich get tax breaks, workers get minimum wage Wal-Mart jobs, the nation (as well as the state tax coffers) go broke.

"Compassionate Conservatism" is the oxymoron of the new millennium.

This country will ultimately be judged by how we treat the least among us.

Point seven:

"Bull$hit."

Ranger responded:

'I agree, your comments are bull$hit.'

Well, I guess that means we agree to disagree. On that note, I'm off to audioland for the weekend (gotta find time to play amongst all the debate).

[NOSValves]

THIS THREAD IS POINTLESS

[mobile homeless]

Craig, that was a pretty pointless post and I dont agree, although the thread does have its severe ups and downs. I thought the last post before yours was pretty well-done regardless of view and took some time to create. I also thought some of your middle thread posts were even more contemplative than your post above as well as the post before that. That was a backslide. Perhaps this thread is doing more good than we imagine. Perhaps it is making a few citizens think about the whole affair, right or wrong. And that is a good thing.

kh

[kev313]

HDBR,

Allright, let's take what you say as true and assume that Iraq is stocked up with the French vx. So, if I follow your reaoning, I should stand up and promote a war because if we do not send our troops in to take the brunt of the first vx wave no one else (France) will? Yeah, that makes no sense. In fact, I think it suggests that even more of a indication of immediate threat is required before sending soldiers in for what you describe as a very deadly situation.

Importantly, however, this has not been used as a basis for the justification of a war. Colin Powell did not stand up at the UN and hold up pictures of a vx stockpile. No one has said "this is why we are doing it." The description of the threat is vague and undefined. Saddam/Iraq is a "danger" or a "threat to our national security." Powerful, but undefined, terms.

There is a credible debate to be had in a situation like Desert Storm where the US is acting to protect another threatened country in the absence of any strong treaty obligations. In a case like this, in the absence of a clearly defined threat or party which is threratened, the questions hold even more weight.

This question has noting to do with supporting the troops. It is about supporting the policy. Whoever recognized that this thread started out as something else entirely is right and no matter what I think about the policy I support the troops wholeheartely. But no matter how many leading questions PUT IN ALL CAPS are asked, and "Nuff saids" and "Duhs!" given, I think it is very dangerous to assume that the case for war rests on solid ground.

[NOSValves]

My post isn't directed at the post previous to it. It just went on with the point theme to in my mind what is true. None of are bantering back and forth is going change a thing and just drive wedges between otherwise good friends. So in my mind this thread is pointless and won't help a thing period mark. If the the Ney Sayers want to really do any good they should of started this a year and half ago and not here. Right your Senators and Congressmen. Why drive wedges between audio friends here what good is it going to do ?? What true good as this thread did name it and I'll concede ?

Craig

[Deang]

Craig, I apologize, and I hope you can forgive me. I just wanted to throw a little salt in your eyes, I didn't mean for you to take it as you did.

Looks like Hussein blinked. He's giving up those two missles. Interesting.

Andy, you may be right. It may be a done deal. Like I said, once it starts, I'll be changing gears.

I went to bed last night praying for special protection on Ranger and Craig's son. I prayed for a swift and decisive victory. I prayed confusion on the enemy, and I prayed for the Iraqi people. I then prayed that God keep the rest of Middle East out of this one. Looks like I'll be adding Andy to the list tonight.

In my head, I rebel against this whole thing -- but in my heart, I'm with the warriors. 100%.

No reason for anyone to stay upset with each other. Venting is good. We need each other for that.

[Audible Nectar]

In response to deang's post:

I think the political debate is healthy, as long as we don't personally attack anyone for our opinions. We can agree to disagree (which is what makes America what it is), but that doesn't mean that we should hold grudges. Some of my best personal friends are self ID'd Republicans, and they are still my friends.

I also believe that political discussion is necessary to educate ourselves. Politics in America somehow has been a "dirty word" or "taboo topic" for too long - not to be discussed. Nothing gets solved without debate. Hopefully through that debate, we all learn something, and gain understanding that there is more than two (as in Dem/Repub) solutions to the problems.

Just because I disagree with Ranger (or some other peoples' opinions on this thread) that does not mean that I wouldn't sit down and have a beer with him over music wafting out of Klipsch speakers. We CAN agree to disagree, and still be Klipsch buddies. At least, I certainly hope so.

No matter what our political views, let's all pledge NOT to allow this discussion to get in the way of the reasons we are here, and not to harm the friendships we have developed here.

[Gregorius]

HDBR,

My daughter is still at FT Knox, KY. They are still awaiting orders for their overseas deployment, I will keep you posted. Good luck in your task at hand, break in the troops well, and come back safely.

regards,

Greg

[Deang]

Orders will be coming any day. I have a friend who's son is a 'Pathfinder' -- he left for Iraq last night. Poop will fly soon.

[rowooo]

Mdeneen..."It aint just me pal. Nearly all the news chatterboxes are asking similiar questions and referring to it roughly as Bush's new spin on the war". These wouldn't happen to be the same news chatterboxes that you previously deemed unrefined, misguided, and valueless would it? "Frankly, I was more interested to read that while others wrote the history of the world up to now, we will write the rest of history." You and me both, damn near fell off the couch. Where is Peggy Noonan when you need her? I think one would have to be rather naive not to be the least bit frightened on what I would call a gradual transformation to foreign policy empiricism over the last 15 years.

[HDBRbuilder]

Kev,

You obviously need to either re-read what I said, or rapidly aquire better reading comprehension skills.

At no place in any of my comments did I say that Iraq has French VX. I said the French began(resumed, actually!)shipping vast amounts of atropine doszages to Iraq.

Neither did I say that you or anybody else needs to "stand up and promote a war"!! I said you need to support OUR SOLDIERS! And your now-too-late rhetoric is NOT DOING THAT! THAT IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS SUPPOSED TO BE ALL ABOUT! Or, in your fervor to be able to vent your misguided opinions someplace, DID YOU NOT TAKE THE TIME TO NOTICE THAT BEFORE YOU DECIDED TO MAKE A FOOL OF YOURSELF BY DOING SO ON THIS THREAD????? This point being made by me about you folks turning this thread into what it has become is my whole point in saying anything here to begin with...don't you get it? If you want a political/ideolgical debate, then start up a thread FOR THAT, dammit!! This is NOT the right place for it!! Those of you who ignore this fact and continue spouting off here are obviously either oblivious to the point of this thread or totally without any proper upbringing!...or maybe just too damned self-serving and lazy to begin a thread for it!! GEEZUS!!!

As for your worry about "sending troops into a very deadly situation"...anytime troops are sent into anywhere it is a potentially very deadly situation! Hell, it is a potentially very deadly situation just to wear the damned uniform! We lose more soldiers in non-wartime situations than in war!!

Matter of fact, YOU are in a potentially very deadly situation every day too! Didn't 9/11 show you anything? Hussein is an American-hating despotic ruler of a country, who sees no problem in not only killing-off thousands of his own citizens(women, children, and old people, NOT able-bodied men who could be a military threat to him...they were not home at the time!)by deploying the same VX that you people are debating whether or not he even has(that is the really hilarious part of your assumptions, BTW!), and who sees no problem whatsoever in pulling out a pistol at any given time and shooting one of his own family members just because he assumes they are up to something, and who calls upon the Islamic world to destroy the Americans(sounds like a parallel to Bin-Laden's own verbage to me!!...and you saw what that led to!!!), and who has total control over what happens to any weapons of mass destruction he has, and can deploy them locally in any manner he wants to use, or give them to buddies who will ensure they get deployed somewhere else(like here, dammit!). Now, is it better to sit around and wait for his toys to be sent here?

BTW...I left out the Russians...and the reason they are sitting on their hands on the U.N. Security council! Everybody has been worried about Russia's ability to keep under control its vast supplies of chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons inventories ever since the breakup of the former U.S.S.R. Well...let me tell you something...they HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO FROM DAY ONE!! And they certainly don't want the world to know it! Fact is, those weapons are NOT under the control of the political leaders, never have been! Soviet strategic and tactical doctrine ALWAYS put those weapons under the control of Army field commanders! When the USSR broke-up, its military became fragmented, and because of that it totally lost control of huge stockpiles of those weapons, and really has no idea where many of them are!! But one thing they DO KNOW...some of them are in IRAQ now!!! And the last thing they want the rest of the world to see is a bunch of captured Iraqi cannisters of VX with cyrillic markings that say "made in USSR" on them!! They have no control over the weapons that have disappeared, and they don't want the world to hold them responsible for recovering them all! Get it???

As for Colin Powell not holding up a picture of a stockpile of VX...do you have any idea of what a stockpile of VX looks like? You can fit a stockpile of enough VX to easily kill well over ten million people in the trunk of your car!!..WITHOUT REMOVING YOUR DAMNED STANDARD-SIZED SPARE TIRE OR YOUR ROADSIDE EMERGENCY KIT!! Now, do you have a clue??? Fact is...even though that much can kill that many people, that same amount is what is a standard deployment for use against just 1,000 enemy soldiers(a battalion)....depending upon the method of deployment and the natural surroundings, such as vegetation. Just imagine a guy with three regular garden sprayers full of this stuff. He goes to the top of the Empire State Building posing as a window washer. He hands over two of the garden sprayers to his terrorist buddies, then they go outside as window washers and just begin spraying it into the air...(excellent method of wide-range fine-misting dispersal!!) Due to the height and the wind...this amount will have spread over many square miles by the time it gets to the ground...and anybody it touches...DIES!!! I am talking about MILLIONS of people! Now, do you have a clue??

We know he has it, and we know where he got, and we know who made it!! And we are NOT the only ones who know!!

Now, what I find the most ridiculous of all are your comments that a war to go in and attack a nation that is "threatening" another nation like in Desert Storm, is OK by you, but this isn't.

Well...Saddam has been threatening his neighbors for years...still is! And he has weapons that can reach his neighbors without even leaving Iraq...he did that with Scuds on Israel the last time around.

Fact is, Desert Storm had nothing to do with his "threatening" Kuwait. It had to do with the fact that he had already invaded Kuwait , and was occupying it!! And we wanted him to leave! He had ample opportunity to leave, but he didn't, so we attacked, and he lost a helluva lot of his people in the process! Remember, we didn't technically invade Iraq, so his decision was not based upon defending his country, it was based upon his decison to sacrifice a large number of his people just to have his way!! Total lack of care for his own people's lives, yet again!! Get it??

Just the existence of this man is a threat to his neighbors as long as he is in power!! Get it?

Hell..I certainly don't want a war! Do I see an alternative? NO! Why? Because I know that Saddam has what he has, and he has no intention of destroying it, and he will eventually give some of it to his buddies who will eventually use it against us! He hates us! He has said that numerous times! If he has no respect for the lives of his own people, and he hates us...what does that tell you? Every little thing he does in the next short while tha appears to be a concession to the UN demands is just to mask his true intentions and to delay the beginning of this war until the Iraqi summer heat sets-in so that we will have more casualties!!! Mark my words!! He has played this head game ever since he got in power...over and over...with us, and his neighbors! Destroying a couple missiles is just an inexpensive way to delay this and cost more American lives! If you are too blind to see it, then God help you!

Dean,

If your friend's pathfinder son was originally at FT Rucker, AL, and was just deployed, that means within about two weeks or less we go in...right on schedule!

To the rest of you:

If your posts are not just to show support for our troops, then please take your damned soapboxes to another thread, this is not the right one!! Show some class and decent upbringing for once!! OK?

To our men and women VOLUNTEERS in uniform, good luck, and God Bless! Get it over soon and come home safely!

[HDBRbuilder]

Mdeneen,

You forgot to say this:

"Yeah, Craig, I am a low-class, self-serving, pompous azz who picked the wrong thread on which to spout-off my crap from atop my soapbox. It would have been much better if I and the others like me had started a thread specifically for this, instead of showing our total lack of decent up-bringing by doing it on this one!"

[Deang]

I would never fart in a phone booth.

[Deang]

Dag gone Andy, lighten up a little.

What does it matter if it's this thread or another. Most threads start as one thing, and turn into another.

Greg started the thread, and has popped in several times -- he certainly doesn't seem upset.

We are Americans. We are not supposed to agree with each other. We are free thinking individuals who have the right and privilage of saying anything we want, anytime we want. Debate is part of our nature and system. Without it -- we're just freaking robots.

[HDBRbuilder]

Dean...I call em as I see em! LOL! Frankly I am extremely disappointed with the members who have used this thread for the purpose of furthering their political/ideological views on the upcoming war. I actually expected much better than this from most of them. Every one of them owes a sincere apology to Gregorious and his daughter, and none of them seem to realize that! That makes it even worse! And when the fact that they are still posting this crap here, instead of starting another thread for it, is taken into account...it is obvious I was dead wrong about my previous opinions of many of them!! So...I felt compelled to state my new opinion of them in my last post! So be it!

You gotta understand, I realize good debate is a good thing and I am all for it, but I also know that when a person is preparing to go to war...that is not what that person wants to hear! This post was started for one reason, but self-serving individuals have continuously used it for another...when they could easily have moved the debate elsewhere...and that, IMHO, shows extreme disrespect, and a lack of class and decent up-bringing! I stand by what I said!

If you are at a football game, as the players from your team run out from the fieldhouse onto the field at the beginning of it, you don't take that particular time to debate whether they should play the game or the reasons why the coach included it on the schedule, you stand up and cheer for your team! By that time it is too late for anything but that! This is the same kinda thing!

[Deang]

I don't think anyone is trying to "further" their political views -- we all have our opinions, and they are not likely to change even with a 2 by 4. It's just debate, lot's of point-counterpoint. It's supposed to be fun. Iron sharpening iron. It's part of what makes up Americans. There is really no need for anyone to get bent.

[kev313]

HDBR,

Point taken. I did misread what you wrote. A hazard of trying to squeeze in some forum early before work. It does not, however, change any of my underlying opinions though.

To be frank, I find your responses to be quite over the top here. By resorting to name calling and an "agree with my conclusions or you are obviously a fool" tone undercuts any persuasiveness any of your conspiracy theory-like arguments might have. You accuse and attack others for having some agenda, some soapbox. I see people trying to debate where a debate exists. You obviously feel strongly about it and take the issue personally. But I think you have your finger pointed the wrong way when you call MD self serving. You must be accustomed to getting your way through volume. Third reminder...saying "Get it" after you say it does not make you right.

How's this for an analogy that might better suit your tastes...just as you wait for someone to show you a better receiver (for the money) than the hk 430, I wait for someone to present a compelling argument attached to some tangible evidence that Iraq is a threat. Not nebulous allegations or assertions. I dont think that anyone will argue that he is a potential threat. IF that were done I would be the first to stand up and say GO on the war. Until it is, however, I remain unconviced. You may also want to consider that I find it unlikely that you will present this evidence in a consumer electronics forum when the Bush Administration has yet to provide it.

[HDBRbuilder]

Kev, for people like you, even if I had a cannister of VX in my hands in front of you, you wouldn't believe it unless I opened it up and you died! Just a bit of FYI: There are many kinds of information that are provided to those who have or have had secret or higher clearances that the present administration is NOT gonna provide to ANYBODY!! For obvious reasons! If you knew exactly where the VX was hidden, and had pictures of it, would you let Saddam know you knew it so he could move it before your airstrikes destroyed it? DUH!! Nuff Said!