Dave Harris Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Although I certainly don't support the inevitable war on Iraq, I certainly wish the men and women in the field - both American and Iraqi - the best possible outcome, one that does not cost either side innocent lives. It is unfortunate that a Bush vendetta will probably cost another several hundred thousand lives. But if the price of freedom means killing those who have no choice but to follow a dictator, and wiping out a few thousand innocent people who were unfortunate enough to be born Iraqi citizens... And heck, maybe a lot of death and destruction will keep George's poll ratings up and boost our 401k's....seems like a fair trade, no? Dave H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowooo Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 From Fox....FBI agents arrested Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the suspected mastermind of the September 11 terrorist attacks. He was arrested in a raid conducted in Rawalpindi in Pakistan. This is great news and shows the Pakistan government and Gen. Pervez Musharraf has the (for lack of a better word) BALLS to proceed with these type of arrests. An arrest of the multitude could really get the ball rolling, hopefully accounting for more significant arrests and Osama's HEAD. Now this is fighting the war on Terrorism..........GREAT JOB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Well, I thought I offered a good stopping point to this thread, but like the Everready bunny... Mark, I disagree with this one point in your previous post: I dont automatically afford respect because someone has a badge, a uniform, a title, a degree, an award or whatever; I afford respect to people whose ideas and judgment are "respectable" in my view. FWIW, any uniformed soldier of the US should be afforded our respect. The reason being that they are putting their lives on the line for the rest of us to be able to enjoy out lives. It's that simple, and it's the least we can do in return. As to your summary: 1) Millions of people across the globe began to say no ...and millions of other you did not take into account are with us...more than against us, particularly from the post Iron Curtain countries who know all too well what repression of freedom is. Interestingly, they are in turn now being bullied by the French who are saying "we will not let you join the EU if you support the US". 2) Other countries stood up and said, we are not rubber stamps, we DO have our own concerns, agendas and opinions that can be different than the USA. Answered above 3) The Pope weighed in to say, nope, you DON'T have a moral imperative to aggressively start a war. He correctly weighed in from the MORAL viewoint. As a fellow Pole and as a Catholic, this is a tough one for me. This is a person who was key in the fall of Communism in Europe, and I don't understand his position on this. But think back to WWII again. Wasn't Pope Pius (I think it was Pius, correct me if wrong please) also advocating the same thing? There was a time when the Pope FINALLY agreed if I recall correctly... I must say that in my gut, I feel the Pope is incorrect, yet as a Catholic, our belief is he's infallible, so this is tough for me. 4) 122 members of Blair's own party revolted and voted against him. Nearly unprecidented. Not surprizing from the same country which cheered Chamberlain in the 30s. 5) Some missiles were found and negotiations led to the (hopeful) destruction of them, and suddenly containment seemed possible. Sure....at 4 missiles per 12 years...how many hundreds of years will disarming Iraq take? Dean, that was a nice prayer...I would like to join your voice to God for our soldiers, and leaders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Lynn, Terry Jones is an entertainer. I cannot even begin to treat that letter with any seriousness... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 He may be a comedian by profession, but he has a point. I don't think it is indended to be 'serious', but is simply using humor to illustrate the problem with the logic the Bush Administration is applying. I suppose when you get right down to it, one thing is true: Hussein was supposed to throw in the towel after Desert Storm. Disarming was a condition of our withdrawal. If war happens -- he brought it on himself and his people. It's not like he hasn't been warned a dozen times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 The UN people in Iraq are inspectors. They are trained to understand what a weapons capabilities are when they INSPECT them. They are not investigators; or James Frgn Bond. And even if they were investigators, 300 men in a country the size of California could be easily deceived to the location of WOMD. It is a rather huge land mass; with a large and detailed military infrastructure whos constituents are greatly rewarded for their position in the suppression of Iraqi people and the hiding of the weapons. Would you give up your membership to the coutry club if the UN knocked on your door? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 A few words on human nature As humans, we tend to avoid pain, and are drawn to pleasure. This is part of our survival mechanism. Another part of survival is denial. Denial is used by our minds to avoid something terribly painful. When one looses a loved one, many times denial kicks in at first. One does not believe, or comprehend the loss at first. We also have filters at work, limiting the information we observe. This prevents mental overload. This also acts as a subconcious chooser of information which backs up our belief system. Mant times, we don't "notice" things that might challenge our beliefs. I believe that is what is at work in the minds of you who do not see the correlation between Hitler and Saddam, for all the similarities needed are that both hate(d) us and what we stand for, and both will use ruthless methods to execute their hostile intentions. In both situations, we have those that want so badly for their lives to continue in a peaceful manner, and those who see the painful reality that the "problem" needs to be delt with in a very definate way. To say today, that containment is working, you are in great denial of how tragically it has failed. This is not to say that those who see the war solution do not have the yearning for peace- I would love for there to be an internal overthrow of Saddam (and we are making this more possible by our military presence). Andy, you were probably correct when you said that we can present some of these people with evidence, but until they see someone else die, they won't believe it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowooo Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Mdeneen.....Great Economic NEWS.....The United States Government will hire and train 10,000 individuals to become port inspectors to enforce and provide security measures. The money to pay for this bold economic endeavor by President Bush will come from the vastly inflated, grossly estimated 40 billion dollars that YOU mentioned in a previous post. This money was specifically allocated in what the administration labeled the OH **** PLAN. This plan was to proceed only if the Turkish Parliament rejected the U.S. deployment plan. When asked what kind of benefit this measure would have on our nations security, Sen. Tom Daschle said, "10,000 new jobs is a start". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Rowoo, I have a new job out of this! Great benefits, and thirty days of paid vacation a year. I even get to wear leather shoes, and a multi-color-coordinated outfit! Well...the multi-color-coordinated outfit is only available in earth-tones...LOL! Other benefits include the loan of a nice complete set of all-season camping gear and clothing, a hunting rifle with unlimited amounts of ammunition included, opportunies for all-expense-paid travel to exotic and distant lands, and use of a company ATV or SUV!! Even the entertainment is provided for...magnificent pyrotechnics and fireworks displays that make the old Bicentennial celebrations appear child's play in comparison!! If you think the laser light show and pyrotechnics combo of a rock concert is something, then you haven't LIVED until you have seen a final protective fire(FPF) of HE-quick and White phoshorous (shake and bake), using traverse left and right, combined with a ball-ball-tracer mad-minute under continous illumination put on by an infantry rifle company or larger-sized element on a moonless nite!! LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerSix Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 ---------------- On 3/1/2003 6:09:13 PM HDBRbuilder wrote: Even the entertainment is provided for...magnificent pyrotechnics and fireworks displays that make the old Bicentennial celebrations appear child's play in comparison!! If you think the laser light show and pyrotechnics combo of a rock concert is something, then you haven't LIVED until you have seen a final protective fire(FPF) of HE-quick and White phoshorous (shake and bake), using traverse left and right, combined with a ball-ball-tracer mad-minute under continous illumination put on by an infantry rifle company or larger-sized element on a moonless nite!! LOL! ---------------- There is truth to that statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Ranger... I didn't even mention the JAAT box overhead, and its contributions to the show!! Hell, just a clear view of a couple of AC-130's giving a hilltop full-boat hell at night is quite a display!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whell Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Deang: "He may be a comedian by profession, but he has a point. I don't think it is indended to be 'serious', but is simply using humor to illustrate the problem with the logic the Bush Administration is applying." OK - I'll bite. Lets use some of his same logic to illustrate why he's wrong. Lets say that those same neighbors, who he says "haven't done anything wrong", were actually providing a safe haven to some nasty folks who blew up his brother's house (a metaphore for teh WTC). And lets also say that while he was providing them safe haven, he was also providing them with funds, supplies, and other key materiel to go out and blow up someone else's house. Would he then not have a cause for action? Especially if he knew that the police (a metaphor for the UN) we're content to do nothing but send over occasional building inspectors (Han's Blix and company), who couldn't find sand on a beach if they tried? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Al Qaeda in Iraq? Hmmm. I didn't know. That changes everything. Blow them to hell. I repeat: The chances of Hussein and the secular Baath Party doing ANYTHING to help out the Wahhabis, or that the Wahhabis would take anything from Hussein -- is about 0% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whell Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Deang: "I repeat: The chances of Hussein and the secular Baath Party doing ANYTHING to help out the Wahhabis, or that the Wahhabis would take anything from Hussein -- is about 0%" I've posted docuemntation to the contrary earlier in this thread (approx page 10). Osama himself is a Wahhibi, and himself called for unity with the Iraqi people, though he was careful not to tie himself to Hussein. The relevance of that is to underscore Bin Laden's ideal that the cause of Islam is a common goal. And, there is still the matter of Islamic terrorist groups finding save haven for training and propogation within Iraq. Your comments not withstanding, I think the evidence supports the contention that religion, and politics, make strange bedfellows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Andy, Rowoo, I have a new job out of this! Great benefits, and thirty days of paid vacation a year. I even get to wear leather shoes, and a multi-color-coordinated outfit! Well...the multi-color-coordinated outfit is only available in earth-tones...LOL! Other benefits include the loan of a nice complete set of all-season camping gear and clothing, a hunting rifle with unlimited amounts of ammunition included, opportunies for all-expense-paid travel to exotic and distant lands, and use of a company ATV or SUV!! Even the entertainment is provided for...magnificent pyrotechnics and fireworks displays that make the old Bicentennial celebrations appear child's play in comparison!! If you think the laser light show and pyrotechnics combo of a rock concert is something, then you haven't LIVED until you have seen a final protective fire(FPF) of HE-quick and White phoshorous (shake and bake), using traverse left and right, combined with a ball-ball-tracer mad-minute under continous illumination put on by an infantry rifle company or larger-sized element on a moonless nite!! LOL! That was the funniest post I read in years. Talk about a positive attitude !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 This is the single most disingenuous statement being made by all too many hawks. This, in all its flagrantly weird and illogical variations is one of the most remarkably blatant proofs of the speaker having no logical capability whatsoever. Where is the perceived breakdown in logic? My preference is for an internal overthrow of Saddam. This would be a solution without much risk to us, therefore much preferable. If that does not happen, then we need to disarm him. We want to avoid war if possible. Your misinterpretation of our recognition of the need for war has clouded your ability to judge logic. Using your logic, you are saying that we "hawks" want any and every opportunity to send our troops in harm's way. That just isn't so. What internal demons prevent you from seeing this? I challenge you to look inside yourself for the answer. Saddam as Hitler: Ill stipulate that Hitlers actual brain now resides inside Saddams head. So what? Now what? We are going to overthrow every government whose leader is a psychopath? Instead of inventing more paranoid delusions about this, try making an actual argument (you know what that is, right?) that Iraq has the capabilities and wherewithal as Germany did. I will also stipulate (to save you from the concept you are breaking any "news" to me good lord dont post any more of those, "I have the secret story no one knows, screeds.") that he has canisters of nasty bio-junk that we should never have provided to him. Ok, now what? Good, The first sentence shows you're a bit closer to clarity! As to the rest...hopefully you remember we launched a war on terror. We got tired of these little groups of fanatics that hate us so much they endanger our interests and our people all over the world. You are correct that Saddam is not the only one, but he is an important one, and thus a great one to continue with (assuming we started with the Taliban in Afghanistan). As to Iraq's capabilities not being equal to Germany's, if you are talking conventional weapons, you're correct. Obviously, this day and age presents terrorists with more potent choices which you don't want to see. As to the Pope, I must concede that you may be partially correct. It produces cognitive dissonance in my mind, but the matter may clear up in the future. I would say there are areas where we need to agree to disagree, but your first paragraph does show up a blockage to your understanding the right's stand on war. Are there some war loving hawks who get a rush of excitement about going to war like you suggest? There sure may be a few out there somewhere...but if you see most of us this way, I would argue that's the more paranoid view, for your fears are misplaced. BTW, we deal differently with a government which already has nukes, from one which has not, but is actively pursuing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 "My preference is for an internal overthrow of Saddam. This would be a solution without much risk to us, therefore much preferable. If that does not happen, then we need to disarm him." I have been waiting for his internal overthrow for 15 years. It will not happen. He is a brutal dictator. Some people fail to understand; there is no freedom of assembly. You utter one whisper against the state and you are executed without due process. Dan Rather did not enlighten the public on these issues he could have addressed with Saddam. There is no freedom of speech, no due process, no freedom of assembly in Iraq. Do you think Iraqis could hold a little Tianamen Square type rally? The Chineese have a more open society than Iraq. The only thriving part of Iraqi society is the military infrastructure. It is like the Comunist Party of the USSR. If you are one of the privilidged in society you want to stay there. If you hide weapons big deal! If you shoot your neihbor and say he is a traitor; that is like towing the party line. It is not civilized in Iraq. They only understand death and fear. Stop imprinting civilized logic on the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 I was thinking more of a way for them to avoid their own destruction. By no means was I "imprinting civilized logic" on anything as fanatical as these people are. You must admit, our troops being there now are a pressuring factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowooo Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 "I'd be willing to give him a bloodless victory as his own, and if he takes it, I would have NEW respect for him". To have a NEW respect, one would first have to have respect. Mdeneen are you telling us there's just a sliver of respect for Bush in that liberal heart of yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Well Mark, I'm glad that sniffing those solder fumes for years has not dampened your sense of humor as badly as your sense of logic! I've been sniffing them most of the week-end myself! As Moe Howard used to say, "I'm going to explain this so even you can understand it!" One can desire something, but know that it is not possible to have it. We can disagree as to whether you think we can have peace with this loon (to use Kelly's excellent term) or not. But desire alone is not a determining factor, and our desire is not necessarily someone else's desire. Remember, the blind yearning for peace just before WWII allowed Hitler to get more of what he wanted and to build his war machine even stronger. Did anybody's yearning for peace back then cause it to happen? To the contrary, it allowed more destruction to take place than had Hitler had a pre-emptive war launched against him. My argument is that peace is not possible without a strong deterrent to our self aclaimed enemies. We have not had true peace with all the attacks we have endured, with 9/11 being the largest attack. So, when you "yearn" for something, it means you emotionally attach to seeking that outcome. Keywords: Seek that outcome To yearn means to long for or want something. One can "yearn" for a friend's wife, but that does not mean one will act on that yearning. There may be other factors to consider. One can "yearn" for a stack of money seen at the bank, etc. Yearning is emotional and emotion alone is not the basis for action...at least for the mentally healthy. So, logically, can I yearn for peace? Sure! Logic intact. Do we have peace now? My belief is NO. The road to peace? Remove those who attack you. Logic still perfectly intact and there is no self cancellation. Do you act on all your emotions Mark? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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