Question about soundstage

[m00n]

I have a very general idea about sound stage. What I would really like to know is this something that only horn loaded speaker designs have, or do other speakers have the ability to have a good sound stage too?

Reason I ask is because I have toyed around with the idea of builing a set of loudspeakers someday. I loved how the belles sounded big and full. Is this something that can be accomplished with a set of speakers that don't use horns?

Thanks

m00n

[JohnA]

Soundstage is the ability of 2 speakers to fool your ears into thinking there are multiple sources of sound placed in 3 dimensions in frony of you. My La Scalas are not good at it. My old Boston Acoustics A150s were. Martin Logan SL-3000s were GREAT at it. For instance, the sax player in DSOTm00n should be out in the room WAAY in front of the speakers and to one side (right, I believe).

With modern recording techniques, soundstage is all artificial. No one sets up 2 mics and burns tape anymore.

[m00n]

So, I gather then that it's not something that is a chararistic of ONLY horn loaded speakers, right?

And what is DSOT?

[formica]

LOL... it took me a minute to figure it out too...

it's "Dark Side Of The m00n"

[Tom Mobley]

>>"And what is DSOT m00n?"

hehehe

some old pink floyd album, Dark Side Of The m00n

Tom

[cyclonecj]

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On 5/1/2003 12:48:15 AM m00n wrote:

So, I gather then that it's not something that is a chararistic of ONLY horn loaded speakers, right?

And what is DSOT?

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The best imaging I have ever heard from a speaker was from a pair of Acustats ( I think that's how its spelled) Electrostatic speakers. The dealer I bought my first La Scala's from in San Francisco had a pair back in the early 80's. When they were playing in the room, it was almost impossible to tell where the sound was coming from. There were musicians all over the room. It was amazing.

The only problem was ... well .. they sounded like shi#.

[NOSValves]

John Albright,

I'm suprised at your statement you don't get a sound stage from your Lascala's ! My soundstage is huge , tall and very detailed . Sounds like a source/placement problem.

Craig

[m00n]

Does anyone know of any whitepapers on how to design a speaker with good soundstage?

[m00n]

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On 5/1/2003 1:12:09 AM formica wrote:

LOL... it took me a minute to figure it out too...

it's "Dark Side Of The m00n"

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Oh... I see what he did. I thought he just accidently put m00n right next to DSOT. And I had no idea what DSOT was. Guess I was a bit slow there.

[horonzak]

Soundstage Is a myth. allot of recordings are multi mic mastering. Mic on drums,(multible mics on drums) mic on bass, mic on keyboard mic on strings, mic on vocal etc etc. then mixed for balance & effect. On classical I have an RCA (BARTOK) that used 32 mics. Most of the mics were mounted on tall stands facing DOWN on the musicians. If you look at the photos of the recording sessions, that some times come with record albums (cd or lp) you can at times see mic placements. Floor reflections not hall reflections (back stage side stage, size of stage) When the mic is stuck down the throat of a SAX or at the lips of vocal not mutch soundstaging here. Take the recording of Miles Davis KIND OF BLUE you can hear the SPIT in the sax the mic was so close. No soundstage here. When some reviewer claims he hears the back wall of the stage, Its probably just the reflection off the top of the musicians balled head.

[jtice]

So, how much is soundstage affected by room layout, speaker placement and more to the point, objects behind and between the speakers?

My listening room is 24x20 and also serves as an office and pool room. Rather than describe it at length I'll link a diagram I made while trying to figure out placement. This arrangement is the best I can achieve without removing the table and I don't know if/how much I'm compromising the soundstage. An audition without the table would be an undertaking.

I'd appreciate opinions and suggestions.

John

Room

[tubenube]

I think I have to disagree that the 'virtual' soundstage is a myth.

Years ago I stumbled into a high end audio store in Atlanta. After chatting with the owners for a bit I was invited to their listening room. I sat in a (I presume a precisely positioned) listening chair facing two every tall "$50,000/pair" electrostatic speakers fed with cables I thought had to be 3" thick. This was my first exposure to such speakers and was duly impressed with just their sheer physical presence. Anyway, they put on a 3 piece jazz trio (sax, bass & drums) and I'm here to tell you it sounded so *live* the soundstage was almost frightening real. (Eyes closed) I could literally hear the sax player swaying with the music and the difference in height of the high hat and snare/bass drum. The bass & drums were clearly behind the sax and the whole trio was slightly 'above' me as if I were in a small jazz club sitting at the front table with a stage slightly higher than the floor.

In retrospect I have to say that experience *ruined* me. Unfortunately I was so stunned I never asked whether the source was CD or LP or what the recording was. I still kick myself in the a$$ for not knowing this critical piece of info.

I'm sure my memory has exaggerated the experience but to this day I continue to compare systems to that experience and attempt to match it (within my own financial limitations of course).

I'm still trying to obtain some '3 dimensionality' to my soundstage. I can clearly place individual instruments left/right but not up/down or front/back. Front/back just sounds louder/softer (and not necessarily 'ahead' or 'behind'). I'm sure up & down is a function of the actual height of the whole speaker array and/or the x-overs involved.

Nor have I been able to achieve a sounstage that is apparently wider than my speaker placement. While I have heard it once/twice (close my eyes, point to an instrument I hear, open them and find I'm pointing to the left/right of the actual speaker) I feel certain that is the result of the acoustical properties of the room my system is in.

I have to agree that modern recording/engineering mostly misses the mark when trying to recreate a 'live' experience, even of most live recordings (to save my own sanity? . If I could just find an LP/CD that was (as you say) recorded with two mics only it might make a difference helping me tune my system better.

If anyone has any advice/tips as to how to achieve better soundstaging (short of buying $50,000 speakers I'm all ears.

[cyclonecj]

You were possibly listening to Martin Logan's. They do exactly what you were describing. I am always impressed by the soundfield that electrostatic speakers create. Unfortunately, they are very pricy, & very power hungry, not to mention they are also a very hard load for an amp to drive.

I have set up many systems, & almost any speaker can create a decent soundfield if the room is laid out right. I seems the room is almost more important than the speakers. It just takes time to find the right placement. 9 out of 10 times, corners are the best place to start, & if the speakers are not floor dependant, raising them up a bit really helps.

[jazman]

Maron,

There really is a soundstage on the "Kind of Blue" recording. I have an idea where each player is located within the studio when I listen to that LP.

Moon,

Soundstage is evident listening to many speakers. It's the end result of all the components in the chain, including the acoustic environment where those components are used. You can spend a lot of time and money tyring to achieve what is already available in a vintage pair(before 1980) of Belles. Your challenge will be to get past the WAF to allow you to try tubes powered amps, as well as better SS amps, along with better souce components(cd and analog) to really hear what a pair of Belles can bring to the table.

Klipsch out.

[Strabo]

Some speakers seem able to do it effortlessly. I noticed that it comes easy to B&W speakers.

I fought my Forte's for a long time trying to get an image. Unfortunately I don't have much leaway for adjustments in my current room.

Near field listening seems to be easier to create. My sweet spot is about 9-10 feet back with the speakers 7 feet apart and slightly toed in. It is important to remove any furnature from within that triangle (outside of it if possible). That is the reason so many die hard "audiophiles" are deadset against having a TV in the room, and definately not between the speakers. After much trial and error I was able to get an image on DCC/Mofi recordings but that was it.

The power source is also important. I finally stepped away from integratedes and bang, everything had a 2D image. And better recordings are now able to create a 3D effect. One of my favorites are the Patricia Barber SACD's. At times the cymbol crashes are like fireworks going off all over the front of the room, outside of the speakers, above them, and behind them. Gives me goose bumps and puts a big grin on my face.

Of course my wife thinks I'm nuts (probably others here too)and can't understand why I want my own stereo room.

[formica]

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On 5/1/2003 10:08:51 AM horonzak wrote:

Soundstage Is a myth. allot of recordings are multi mic mastering ..... When some reviewer claims he hears the back wall of the stage, Its probably just the reflection off the top of the musicians balled head.

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I just liked that one... as he's so right about it being all (>90%) in the sound engineer's hands

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On 5/1/2003 tubenube wrote:

Years ago I stumbled into a high end audio store ... I sat in a ... listening chair facing two every tall "$50,000/pair" electrostatic speakers .... Anyway, they put on a 3 piece jazz trio (sax, bass & drums) and I'm here to tell you it sounded so *live* the soundstage was almost frightening real.

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and even if i'm in Montreal, I honestly think we heard the same Martin Logans and the same recording ... i have, since then, had a soft spot for big electrostatic speakers. They are very hard to place and VERY room dependant but the pay back can be worth it in an ideal environement. I have always wondered about that recording they used.

As great as the Logies sound they aren't actually true to the original recording (adding reflections, cancelations, colourations, etc...) and this bring up an interesting point. Everyone searches for "perfect reproduction" but wouldn't this represent near field listening in a small mixing booth? Doesn't sound to appealing

Rob.

[Deang]

Nice thread.

Having owned some Magnepans for well over a decade, I think the biggest problem with Planars and electrostatics is that in spite of the nice image they throw -- the music just doesn't sound very natural.

Someone mentioned their wonderful dynamics, which I thought was strange -- because I always felt this was certainly one of the areas they had trouble in.

I do think we need to differentiate between a speaker's ability to fill a room with natural, open sound -- and their ability to image. I think of imaging as the ability to lock instruments and vocals in their place from left to right and front to back. Many speakers image, or soundstage better than horns -- but at what cost?

My Magnepan 1.5QR's were unseated by the diminutive RB-5! What you realize after you listen to horns for a while -- is how freaking compressed and dead everything else sounds. I always thought the Maggies were killer, but after hearing the RB-5's -- the Maggies sounded like someone threw a towel over them.

I think horns just fill a room with nice, open, natural, uncluttered music. Dynamics are intact -- and things just sound "right". Who the hell ever went to a live event and said, "Oh my, I love the way those violins hang left of center."? It's simply not something one cares about -- so why does it become of interest when people buy their system. Well, gee -- I guess you gotta get something in return for giving up the dynamic life of the music.

Also, those Planars and electrostatics are dipoles, and the soundfield tends to be a little diffuse, -- I think this adds to their problems.

Horns image good enough. With very little work, I was able to get a nice stable center image -- and the music never seems like it's hanging only two inches from the front baffle.

Horns get out of the way of the music -- anything else is just...well...you know...B.S.

[whell]

Dean:

That's funny. I'm a former Maggie owner (MQ-10 if I remember correctly). They lost their position in my listening room to a pair of RB-5's I picked up on Ebay from a local seller.

I loved my Maggies, and had owned them since 1993, and had owned another pair of Maggies before that. They were excellent speakers for the price, but I'll never go back after hearing what Klipsch can do.

[Parrot]

Dean wrote:

*******Who the hell ever went to a live event and said, "Oh my, I love the way those violins hang left of center."? It's simply not something one cares about -- so why does it become of interest when people buy their system.*******

Amen, brother. I have actually tried to locate instruments at symphony concerts with my eyes shut, and the ability to do it varies with location. In the cheaper seats, you hear the sound of the whole orchestra just fine but you sure can't precisely locate positions of the players by their sound alone.

Another thing I read all the time is something like, "When Joe Smith played his guitar, he was in my room!" or "Miss X was on my lap!" These people are either exaggerating or have had a little too much to drink if they are so out of touch with reality that they think the musician is in their living room. I've heard recordings of female vocalists that sounded good, but I've never thought one was sitting on my lap. I'd notice that.

[AnalOg]

I have to agree on the imageing of horns statement that Dean presents. The things we take for granted. I have my speaker placement optimized to the point were if someone who didn't know what a speaker and stereo system was, sat in my sweet spot they would be amazed at the music coming from nowhere, and that is not an exaggeration. The right equipment & placement will give you imaging, that comes into play with just about any recording Ive heard cd or lp.

Tom