Choosing a TRUE subwoofer

[Bob_Collins]

I am new to the whole subwoofer shopping experience, and trying to make heads or tails out of the current offerings, and am in need of some guidance from those who know more than I.

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I am of the opinion that a subwoofer should play down to 20 Hz. minimum, and actually should extend below that. If it cuts off at 25 Hz., or 40 Hz., I dont want it, and in my opinion, it is not a true subwoofer. I am also of the opinion that the subwoofer should actually not be noticed so much (when playing music, anyway), but rather the lack of it should be noticed (playing music with the subwoofer engaged should sound good, true, and accurate (not boomy, or thumping), and then if the subwoofer were suddenly switched off, you should notice that it is missing). The subwoofer should not be the main, most noticeable piece in the system. It should enhance your other speakers, not overpower them.

I have been running Klipsch Fortes for my main speakers for a number of years, and these are rated down to 32 Hz., (verified with test material, it rolls off SHARPLY at about 32 Hz.). I am now running the Fortes as my surround speakers with Klipsch Reference Series RF-7 speakers for the mains. These too, are rated down to 32 Hz., yet testing with the same material shows that the RF-7s actually extend down to at least 20 Hz., thus I am in need of a TRUE subwoofer (one that can extend below 20 Hz.) to get any improvement in bass extension over what I currently have.

The wife unit will not permit me to play things loud, so I am not looking for quantity, but instead QUALITY of the bass. It should be accurate, clean (free of audible distortion and no muddiness), no overhang, or blubbering (when the signal stops, the woofer cone better stop), and deep (low extension below 20 Hz.).

I have read the WSR Essential Subwoofer Buyers Guide, and while I agree with some of the things Mr. Hardesty (Dr. Boom) states, I know that MY ears are going to be the final judges, however I am hoping to help come up with a short list from recommendations here, and from reviews such as those published in magazines, or on the web.

In theory, the Feed Forward system of operation should be best, as those items that can create errors are looked at and removed prior to the signal being fed to the woofer cone. Servo Control should be second best, because of the tight control they can offer to keep things clean and accurate, however they are still trying to correct an error that has already been output by the woofer into the room where it may be audible, if your ears are good/critical enough. (The Mirage BPS-210 used both technologies; however it appears to have been discontinued.)

Based on the reviews I have read thus far, I am considering the following subwoofers as main candidates to give a listen to (retail prices listed).

Vandersteen V2W ($1295)

Bag End Infra 18 ($1770)

Mirage BPS-400 ($1300)

M&K MX-700 ($1399)

Paradigm Reference Servo-15 ($1500)

Velodyne HGS-12 II ($2199)

The Velodyne is a pricy item, and to be honest I would prefer to go with the HGS-15 (minimum) or HGS-18, but not sure I can convince myself to spend the extra bucks for them. (Im not sure I can convince myself to go the price of the HGS-12, unless it truly proves to be FAR superior to anything else I look at). As you can see from above, most of the subs listed are $1500 or under. As for the Bag End, Im not sure it is anything I will really consider since I cant go hear it someplace, even though it got a great review from WSR. To quote Billy Joel, you cant get the sound from a story in a magazine.

The sub will be used for both movies and music (a good sub should be capable of doing either, equally well). This whole thing of being musical or movie oriented is in reality (I think), nothing more than the sub itself, putting emphasis in the area of the bass where most movie sound effects are occurring (35 Hz. and up), thus making it appear to be better for movies, because of perceived emphasis (thump).

Im not stating the size of the room, because I am interested in QUALITY and not quantity (loudness), so I dont feel the size of the room to be relevant.

[jstanton8]

If you are going to buy a "commercial sub" sub, I would take a look at the SVS line, the reasons for which have been thoroughly discussed over the past year on this forum (ad nauseum).

HOWEVER, for the amount of money you are talking, I would seriously consider DIY subwoo***e (or have Rutledge Audio or Acoustic Visions build one for you like I did). You can get a much better quality subwoofer per dollar spent, or virtually get two of them for the price of ONE commercial sub of similar quality.

Example: I spent a measly $600 for a Stryke AV-15 driver in a 5 cubic foot enclosure with two 18" Stryke passive radiators, tuned to 20 Hz. Double 3/4" MDF all the way around. Add another $140 or so for a 380 watt subwoofer plate amp and I had money left over for a Behringer UltraCurve Pro for sub EQ purposes (EQ is another MUST for a subwoofer to get rid of room modes, unless you have an "acoustically perfect room")!

Had it finished with white oak veneer to match my clear oak K-Horns. If you want to spend more money than that, there is always the Adire Tumult driver, but that with it's requisite 1600 watts amplification will cost close to twice as much as the AV-15 configuration above.

You can pick your driver, pick your enclosure, your amp, your finish, ported or PR'ed: FLEXIBILITY! And at roughly half the cost as going "commercial".

That's my 2 cents...

[M6 Driver]

BoB Collins,

Wait till TheEAR gets a hold of this post. He's a subwoofer fanatic and I'm sure he'll chime in shortly.

Have you looked into www.svsubwoofers.com?

[Bob_Collins]

I've not checked into them (SVS) much, except to browse their site a bit, and to be honest, I am not too keen on buying something "blind", which is what I would be doing if I went with the Bag End, or SVS, or a DIY sub. With a DIY sub, there would be no way to return it if I did not like it in my home. I'm not willing to take that risk.

I know SVS is in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Ohio (I am too), and maybe if I could audition them beforehand, I might be more inclined to be persuaded. It's just that in my mind, a sealed enclosure would be better, as there is no worry of any "port noise" to even remotely enter the sound that is being introduced into the room from the subwoofer.

I was hoping to get some comments on the subwoofers I listed as possibilities (to reinforce their being on my list to audition, or rule them out completely), and to get some recommendations (brand, model, and price) of others I should check out.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I understand that the V of SVS is here on the board sometimes, and maybe he could help to enlighten me, and correct any misconceptions I may have stated in my original post as to what I believe a subwoofer should be and do.

Remember, I am after QUALITY and not quantity. Most of what I have read in regards to the SVS and HSU subs seem to be more for those who want maximum output for the money, which is NOT what I am after. Again, maybe this is a misconception on my part, but most of the posts I have read and can remember for SVS, HSU, and Sunfire, have dealt with getting the highest SPL into the room, and not with getting the most accurate and deep bass output.

At any rate, I appreciate and welcome all input, and thank you for responding already.

[Frzninvt]

I have a Velodyne F1500R which would be the equivalent or damn close to the HGS-15 and can attest to its ability to reproduce VERY LOW bass frequencies, not be boomy in least and not be overly dominant in a system. I seem to feel the bass it more than really hear it, this is with the volume set to "4" and being fed via the LFE input off my Denon AVR-4800. I love the remote control option as well for tweeking it from my couch. It literally moves the floor and shakes the walls, I have been very impressed! I picked it up used for an excellent price. The size of the room it will be in also needs to be a factor for your sub purchase. I have heard that the Vandersteen unit is nice as well.

[easylistener]

My father has forte's and they are great speakers. They go low and have good clean bass. Bag End Infra 18 I have heard is a great sub. But I think you should go to a SVS. I to was not to keen on buying with out hearing but it was wearth it. The reasone I say this is because you only need the sub to be working from around 40hz down. The SVS for there money can go very low and that is what you need. This is my opinion though and yours my differ. The EAR is a good contact for subs. He has experince in a lot of subs. Your problem is that you don't need a sub that a lot of people buy because your mains do go so low with power, and again this is why I would recomand SVS Ultra for you. When you get one don't cut it to high because of the qulity of your forte's.

[Bob_Collins]

Thanks for the response.

Just a reminder, the Fortes are now the SURROUND speakers, and I have RF-7s as the mains. They are even more bass-capable than the Fortes were/are.

[HornEd]

Bob, I was bought two of the first batch of SVS Ultra subwoofers ever made. And, although I use them in an unusual configuration (stacked speaker end to speaker end in a 7' tower surrounded by a false corner with top and bottom port deflectors), I can say unequivocally, the SVS Ultras deliver more QUALITY and QUANTITY for your money by a very large margin!

Tom Vodhanel is the "V" you spoke of... and, busy as he is, he goes out of his way to see that email to him is answered properly and promptly. For example, when I came up with the idea of stacking subs, Tom gave me the inside scoop on how to make the tower more successful. SVS knows their stuff! Tom is so dead honest that he will even refer you to a different subwoofer manufacturer if he thinks that will suit you best. They are nice folks... and you have a guarantee that they stand behind. They will ship you the goods and if you don't like it then send them back... and all you are out is the shipping.

There big (Ultras = 39" tall by 16" diameter) and get rave reviews in every consumer board I have visited. You don't find a lot of complaints about SVS quality or service. I had some minor dammage on a pro-style amp they sent me... and they sent me an immediate replacement and it didn't cost a dime. =HornED

[formica]

As you probably have already read, subwoofers are VERY room dependant, so auditioning the subwoofers should be done as-much-as-possible in the same location. Room peaks can easily add 15db to a resonant frequency... so it can easily make one sub sound boomy in one room and flat in the next.

For example, you listen to a sub which rolls off at 28Hz but there is a room peak is at 20Hz which makes it sound flatter... then you listen to another sub which extends flat down to 20Hz but in a room with a 30Hz peak which makes it sound boomy! Regardless of the sub you buy, if you want "accurate" bass reproduction, I would definitely follow jstanton8's recommendation for a parametric subwoofer EQ to tame the room resonances.

I noticed you were most intrigued by sealed subs probably because of their short group delay? Unfortunately it is more difficult to have F3 below 20Hz for a sealed sub versus a ported sub, but it's part of the trade-off (extension for speed). I haven't heard most of the subs on your list... but I would definitely recommend you give the Velo HGS's an audition as well as the Paradigm Servo 15. Even though you are looking at sealed units, while you are auditioning the Servo-15 you should give the Paradigm PW2200 a listen even though it is ported as it does go lower and is a bargain for what you are getting.

later...

Rob

[JewishAMerPrince]

I had an HGS 12 originally with my RF3 setup, at least till something went arwy internally and the damn thing started to buzz! Not being very flush at that time I purchased an SVS PCi 20-39 which was a very good match with the RF3s. Understand that this is SVS's least expensive powered sub. I too listen at moderate levels so I didn't need the power of the bigger amp in the PC+ or have the $ for an Ultra and separate amp. The 20-39 goes very low and is very clean. Well financial times have changed and I recently upgraded to RF7's and found to my pleasant suprise that my $600 SVS blends PERFECTLY with the RF7's.... a perfect match timbre wise!

Jerry R

[TheEAR]

Bob,

First the list you posted is interesting.

Vandersteen V2W ($1295)

Bag End Infra 18 ($1770)

Mirage BPS-400 ($1300)

M&K MX-700 ($1399)

Paradigm Reference Servo-15 ($1500)

Velodyne HGS-12 II ($2199)

The HGS12 starts to drop like most microsubs at 25Hz a good deal,the MX700 drop starts at 30Hz,the Mirage is solid to 20Hz,BegEnd does very deep but with poor SPL,the Paradigm Servo-15 would be my choice in your list.Goes deep,has good output and its as clean as clean gets.Plus its not expensive at all!

The Vandersteen I did not hear so I cannot comment

As you know the HGS15 and 18 would meet and go beyond your deep bass needs but do cost a good deal more.Of you dont want o break over budget I would look at HSU and SVS

The HSU VTF3 goes deep and has great output down to 20Hz,its a Servo-15 sized box using a single 12" woofer but it will impress you with its deep bass and bass quality.A very good buy and you could start with one and then maybe adda second unit for extra SPL.

The best choice in my view is the SVS PC-Plus,digs as deep as you can hear and lower,plus it can shake the house in the vicious SVS style.A great performer using again a 12" woofer in a tall ported cylinder.Here too,get an extra if the first fails to cut the SPL cake.

If you can stretch the budget get a single Ultra/Samson 1000 and the EQ SVS has for sale.Later if you feel like hitting new SPL record levels just add a second Ultra passive sub.Awesome output,earth digger deep bass and superb sub bass quality.And when you see the quality of the TC Sounds woofer used in the Ultra even the Wilson WATCH DOG woofer does not look as great anymore.

[boomer9911]

BagEnd...OUCH...just need a forklift to move it mind you...

I'll stick to my Velo FSR18, it rumbles enough at less cost...

[J. Gary]

If you are going to look at the Vandersteen subs then I would recommend that you get a pair of 2Wq subs. A pair of these is far superior to a single V2W IMHO and is well worth the extra investment. They blend in so smoothly into my system that they "disappear" when playing music. You should read the review of this sub below:

http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/Pdffiles/2wqrvwg.pdf

I think you would be more than satisfied with such a setup.

[Bob_Collins]

Thanks to all that have posted, it seems that SVS gets high marks from everyone here, so I'll have to give them some consideration, and hopefully somehow arrange an audition or something before I purchase anything.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

TheEar, I was really hoping you could offer input on the Vandersteen, as it is in the top position of subs I want to audition. Unfortunately, the only Vandersteen dealer in the state (<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Ohio) doesnt have them in for audition, but they do have the Vandersteen 2W-Q, which is supposed to sound pretty similar, only not quite as loud.

I knew the HGS-12 rolled off sharply below 20, but didnt know it started to roll off sharply at 25 (although when I looked at the table I included below, it dropped14 dB when going from 25 down to 20 Hz., so I have to say you are indeed correct). I have a friend who has one, and was quite impressed with it, but I havent done any low frequency sweeps or testing on it to see how it goes. He has the subsonic filter set to 20 Hz., which is that guys lowest setting. The 15 and 18 both have a lowest setting of 15 Hz. for the subsonic filter.

The servo 15 was the top guy on my list not too long ago (until I read The Essential Subwoofer Buyers Guide special edition put out by WSR, which didnt give it overall high marks in a few areas. Ill have to be sure to audition it, as I have been told it will go well below 20, and is clean and not boomy. According to these same reviews, the output of the subwoofers I listed at 20 Hz. are:

Vandersteen V2W 94 dB (down 10 dB from 25 Hz.)

Bag End Infra 18 90 dB (down 12 dB from 25 Hz.)

Mirage BPS-400 Not stated (105 dB at 25 Hz.)

M&K MX-700 92 dB (down 8 dB from 25 Hz.)

Paradigm Reference Servo-15 96 dB (down 10 dB from 25 Hz.)

Velodyne HGS-12 90 dB (down 14 dB from 25 Hz.)

The 2 highest output units (of the ones with an output listed at 20), are the Servo-15 and the Vandersteen, separated by only 2 dB. Again, remember, I am not after ultimate loudness of the bass, but rather a low, extended bass response that is clean (distortion free), not thumping or booming just for the sake of making things rattle.

J. Gary, I agree with you that the 2W-Q can be blended in with the mains better than anything else, do to the unusual method of connection, although I have not actually heard them either. Ultimately, I would love to have a 2W-Q attached to each speaker in my system, but right now I am looking for something to hook up to the LFE or .1 output to get me started.

Formica, I am leaning in the direction of the sealed box units, due to their improved transient response, and less aggressive roll-off below their nominal cut-off frequency. Again, Im talking theory here as expounded by Richard Hardesty, and Im counting on knowledgeable folks from this site to set me straight, if I am mistaken.

[Fish]

I only mention this because this is the Klipsch site.The RSW 15,20HZ AT 97db in a 7500 cf room,one of the best measuring subs we've seen,in a smaller room expect 2to3 hz lower and 3db higher,it went down to 16hz.Tom Nousaine,sound and vision.You may already have considered this ,if so please disregard.

[Bob_Collins]

I've considered the RSW-15, but I've never really been impressed with Klipsch subwoofers from what I remember of them in the past.

[InnovaZero]

Sunfire...not quality bass...WHAT!!!?? That is beautiful bass, bone crunching too.

Anyhoo I would seriously look into the Velodyne HGS-18. That thing digs deep like no other, its not the loudest but it will still do say 14hz at over 100db. It digs with good volume down to say 10-12hz area..I believe. It's also got very, and I mean VERY little to no distortion...this is beautiful, deep, linear bass at it's best.

[skonopa]

Something a bit different. I have a REL Storm III subwoofer. It is rated down to 18 hz and the bass it produces is very clean, tight, and accurate. It may not be as loud as some of the others mentioned, but it does indeed dig deep. Jeez, you could set the cross-over at 22hz on the thing! I found it blends very seamlessly with my RF-7s. It goes for around $2000. If it truly is quality vs quantity that you are looking for, than this is also, in my opinion, a worthy consideration.

[Danartdis]

If I may, it seems that there can be quite a disparity between the MSRP of the Velodynes and the "street price". I think that brand new HGS-18's are going for <$2000 on ebay.

[krisp_01]

I have a few questions about the Mirage BPS-400 if someone wouldn't mind taking the time to answer them it would be greatly appreciated.......

1. Where are the two 12" woofers firing ....front or side or down????

2. Does this Sub really create a lot of bass(floor shaking,heart pounding) in movies and music????

3. Is it good value for $1300????????