NOSValves Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 What about the PS tranformer in these amps the same or different ? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Hello: I agree with the design is key statement. For some tube gear it is possible that a better tube will contribute to a more satisfactory "sound" the user wants to obtain, or sounds good to that person. Win dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Ron Welborne discusses this on his website. He's got an interesting narrative on his process determining what to do next after the Moondogs. In his assessment on his new DRD's with or without tube rectification, he gives the nod to SS rectification. I take "nod" to express the slightest preference since he offers SS or tube rectification as an option in the amps. I had intended to paste an excerpt of his discussion into this post, but at the moment pointing to www.welbornelabs.com just gives a page cannot be displayed message. He does talk about the usual problems with SS rectification and what he has done to make it work satisfactorily in his amps. Best regards. Dee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Ron has the great penchant to always love what he is doing at any given time... Hang around and you'll find the catch. All it takes is some time. ps-Not to say Ron doesnt have some great stuff there. And he can be a fine chap...sometimes; the above just an obervation. I would opt for the tube rectification choice on a personal note but many arent as sensitive to this. And as stated above, SS can be done quite well. I still have ultimate reservations however Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 25, 2003 Author Share Posted August 25, 2003 Ron did qualify the statement regarding his preference for SS rectification by saying, "...with these amps." The statement pertained only to the DRD design because of how the PS circuit is designed. I agree with Win, and think it really just comes down to what the system as a whole prefers. "System" of course including ears and music taste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 I hope you are right, Dean... As I think tube rectification will get harder and harder to find down the road. I still havent heard a tube rectified amp I love to death, but have heard some nice ones, the last one being the scalpel-like, amazingly fast Joule Electra Stargate Monos. Still, it wasnt totally my cup of tea. AGain, the difference can be subtle, but to me, still an important one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 ---------------- On 8/25/2003 8:47:02 AM NOSValves wrote: What about the PS tranformer in these amps the same or different ? Craig ---------------- The STA25 ran the EL34's on higher voltage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 I ran across an interesting description of output relation to power supply, and that was: The output is a modulated version of the power supply. With that in mind, anything on the power supply also exists, in some form, on the output. Two examples: If you have a nice stiff supply that rings at 5 KHz, there's going to be a 5 KHz contribution to any audio frequency from 5 KHz up .. lots of fun sum and difference frequencies as well as the 5 KHz contribution itself. If you have a nice soft supply that rings around 10 Hz, you will have some loss in dynamics, some screwed-up bass, and probably no particular impact on the highs. So, whenever you're listening to your amp, you're also listening to its power supply. It IS in the audio chain. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 I'm with Leo on this one as well. Those that think the PS is ultimately out of the circuit per say arent thinking of the whole picture. It's there in all its pathetic glory. Hey Guy, why the change in name? I kind of liked seeing the whole thing...had a certain ring to it. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Anybody here goof around with any battery powered amps? It would bring in a whole host of inconviences, but what about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 ---------------- On 8/25/2003 5:14:21 PM mobile homeless wrote: Hey Guy, why the change in name? I kind of liked seeing the whole thing...had a certain ring to it. kh ---------------- Don't want to disappoint you so I'm back with the original name Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Leo, Your description is quite accurate. There really isn't such a thing as an amplifier. Each component (tube) works as a switch to control a higher voltage, as accurately as possible. A small signal goes into a tube, to make it pass or not pass a larger signal. Until you get what you want. Sure sounds simple (no pun inteneded)! Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 25, 2003 Author Share Posted August 25, 2003 I've been thinking about Leo's post off and on all day, it's an interesting way of looking at it, and I must agree that is logical and yes -- simple! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 Ryan, so you say if two things are done to the exact same specs you shouldnt hear ANY differences, regardless of the way it was achieved? Why are engineers always the last to hear/perceive differences? Because they dont need to; the measurements tell them what they are hearing. If two things measure the same, then all must be equal. End of argument. OF course, the measurements only tell part of the story, and much of the time, we havent devised enough measurements or proper tests to tell the whole picture. The Best engineers always take the intuitive leap making advances where the more stayed exist within the envelope. That being said, I have still never heard a SS rectified amplifier equal the ease of a tube rectified circuit. Ryan, have you done any experiments with HEXFREDs in the ps combined with Snubber Networks? kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 26, 2003 Author Share Posted August 26, 2003 "I have still never heard a SS rectified amplifier equal the ease of a tube rectified circuit." I'm not sure about that word. Is that really the best word? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 What word do you want? Ease and lack of mechanical nature...slight mechanical edge? Subtle sense of harshness? EASE is a more esoteric way of defining this hard to pin-down feeling from listening to a SS rectified amplifier, whether it be PP or single-ended. Actually, a sense of ease is a pretty good decriptive term. SS rectification ends up sounding more mechanical with a grain riding along, or edge (again, this is not GRAAAAIN but more subtle). IS this EASY to detect and are ALL bothered by it? No. Then again, many people also love solid state amps that bother me. It's this slightly unnatural essence of the sound that ultimately bothers me. Until I hear a SS circuit that I like that has the full sonic benefits of tube rectification, I'll take the extra cost and hassle any day. For those that believe that there are no differences, count yourself lucky that you can save a few ducats and be happy at the same time. It would be interesting to hear two identical amps such as the Welborne DRD done with fully optimized SS and tube rect, just to hear the difference. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 26, 2003 Author Share Posted August 26, 2003 My only points of reference are the Scott 299B on the Cornwalls, the Apollos on the RF-7's, and the first 299A and Superamp DJH on the RF-7s. I never heard or sensed anything that made me say, "OH MY GAWD, I'VE JUST GOT TO THIS SS RECTIFIED POS OUT OF THE HOUSE!!". The only thing I really sensed with the Scott was a sense of additional warmth, and a little bit darker signature. It wasn't a difference that was very pronounced -- just noticeable. Both the Apollos and AE-25 DJH sounded cleaner to me, but again -- not by a margin that was anything to get excited about. When I think of "a sense of ease", I think of it in the context of 95db or louder and not putting me in the fetal position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 I will probably get this wrong, but there is a story about an engineer and a mathematician. The mathematician says to the engineer, "Here is a problem for you. You are six feet away from the most beautiful woman in the world. Every five minutes you move half the distance closer to her." The engineer says, "That is awful! If you do that, no matter how much time passes, you will never touch." The mathematician just smiles and says, "Close enough." Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 ---------------- On 8/26/2003 3:54:20 PM DeanG wrote: The only thing I really sensed with the Scott was a sense of additional warmth, and a little bit darker signature. It wasn't a difference that was very pronounced -- just noticeable. Both the Apollos and AE-25 DJH sounded cleaner to me, but again -- not by a margin that was anything to get excited about. ---------------- I'm of the school at this point (still a newbie, but what the hey) that there are a lot of amps that get the DETAIL right, but get the EMOTION wrong. I think "ease" is used in the transitive sense, i.e., it describes not so much the sonic qualities but more the emotive qualities of the music. I'm sitting in the living room right now listening to Pat Metheny's baritone guitar on "One Quiet Evening" and I have to say that I'm emotionally connected to this music. Just about in tears, in fact, and I don't get that with just about any setup. I think "ease" is a good word ... but perhaps you need to feel it before you can relate to it. Perhaps you've had this already, but I think your music is a notch or two up on the drive scale, so perhaps "linkage" is a better term of art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 Not tears again common get a hold of yourself real men don't cry over music Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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