Deang Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 Why not just twist Kelly's arm into selling you his -- he's just itching to get back into some good push-pull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 Here is what I use on vintage gear these day's but there only good for Bananas . http://www.jaytronics.com/connectors.htm Part number 45-282G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuffclean Posted September 13, 2003 Author Share Posted September 13, 2003 Kelly/Edster........anybody know why Ron discontinued the Moondogs and replaced with DRD's. What is the sonic difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Expensive kits are harder to sell, which is one of the reasons he discontinued the Apollos. The Doggies were considerably more than what the DRDs are now selling for. I'm not aware of any direct comparisons as of yet. The Moondogs have achieved "legendary" status, and don't believe the DRDs will be able to accomplish this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Dean: Please explain why you have reservations for the DRD amplifiers. Having built the Moondogs, as well as having helped a few Moondog owners trouble-shoot and repair certain problems -- even with factory built amps, I am most interested in what you can provide to back up your opinion that the DRD amplifiers may not be able to keep pace with the Moondog. It's my feeling that the DRD amps may be among the best currently available, in either kit or factory (watch the soldering, Ron!)form. I see no reason whatever to claim that the the DRDs should be held in reservation. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuffclean Posted September 13, 2003 Author Share Posted September 13, 2003 Erik.......in you estimation, what would be the sonic differences between the Moondogs and the DRD's. How does the Horus's compare to the Moondogs? Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Hi, Stan: I would be happy to address this tomorrow when I have a bit more energy. I'm just really tired tonight from a pretty long week at school. Jeff Lessard's Horus amplifiers, which I built this summer, are nothing short of exquisite. But the Welborne DRDs are amplifiers I believe to have enormous potential. I'd be glad to explore this with you more in the morning. Regards, Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 I know you asked Erik, but I have also heard the two. The Horus is a little more detailed, dynamic, and extended (both ends). There are a lot of compromises built into a transformer that supports all DC currrent and magnetic flux in addition to all audio current and magnetic flux. In a parallel feed design the output transformer is audio only, no DC .. optimized for audio. The audio impact is as one would expect .. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 ---------------- On 9/13/2003 6:21:05 PM DeanG wrote: Expensive kits are harder to sell, which is one of the reasons he discontinued the Apollos. The Doggies were considerably more than what the DRDs are now selling for. I'm not aware of any direct comparisons as of yet. The Moondogs have achieved "legendary" status, and don't believe the DRDs will be able to accomplish this. ---------------- At the time the Moondog came out, 2A3 amps were pretty much uncommon. Now... Geez... how many amps based on this tube are around? It's a bit harder to achieve cult status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 ---------------- On 9/12/2003 10:42:46 PM NOSValves wrote: Here is what I use on vintage gear these day's but there only good for Bananas . http://www.jaytronics.com/connectors.htm Part number 45-282G ---------------- Craig, Thanks for posting the pic and link. That is one cool adapter to use banana plugs on vintage gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 Stan: This reply is going to be a little on the long side... Leok pointed out the main difference between the DRD and Horus. The output transformer seems to be a pretty important factor in all of this, and the Horus, as well as other parallel-feed amplifiers, make the best of perhaps a slightly compromised output approach by not using a transformer that has to contend with both power supply and music issues under the same roof. However, as mentioned previously (lots of times), a key aspect of the DRD is that it (is said)to provide immunity from possibly contaminating elements from the power supply because of a simple but really intelligent connection between the OPT (output transformer)and cathode/filament of the 2A3. Another difference concerns the use of choke-loading on the 2A3 grid, which is very Horus-like in that respect. In addition to interstage coupling, the DRD also uses direct coupling, which again reduces the number of parts in the signal path. It's often said that the more simple the design (providing it's a good one, and I think the DRD is absolutely very good!)the (subjectively)better and more detailed the sound. Last year sometime (wasn't it last year, Leo? sheesh, I can't remember!), Leok and I both modified our Moondogs by using the same output connection (ok, I'll say it -- the 'Ultrapath')on our own amplifiers. This had promising results. Leo also removed the cathode resistor bypass capacitor (small electrolytic fella)on the input and liked the sound -- as I did when I first tried it, but put it back in again when I began to contemplate the possible sale of my Moondogs. That bypass capacitor is not critical to the circuit, and Jeff also does not use one in the Horus. There is the chance that it (again subjectively)could bring a bit more bass to the table, but the amplifier sounds good to me both ways -- both with and without that capacitor. Since I had planned to respond to your post from last evening, I was thinking about this while pouring a cup of coffee just a few minutes ago: I wonder if Ron W. would sell the DRD kit, minus the output transformer. Granted Jack Eliano's transformers have a good reputation and are well-built, but I would be interested in building the amplifiers exactly according the assembly manual, but without the output transformer. In its place, one could very easily install a plate-loading choke on the 2A3 and of course a permalloy parallel feed OPT for the output. The 'Ultrapath' connection would already be present. And this thus brings up another similarity between the most recent edition of the Horus and DRD: In addition to the 'Ultrapath' output connection, Leo took a well-researched leap of faith in transforming his formerly stock Moondog into a parallel-feed amplifier. What I just mentioned about the modifying of the DRD is exactly is what he had already accomplished. And what a great kit this would make! Have a look at Ron's Moondog Audio 2A3 amplifier. You will notice that there is but one large transformer (clad in a veneer wrap)plopped down on the chassis plate. I once asked him (Ron) if he would share the schematic for this particular amp, and he said 'no.' But where oh where is the OPT? I'll bet it's inside doing parafeed duty! Parallel-feed or not, I consider the DRD to be a great amplifier at an even better price. I was lucky enough to listen to some stock Moondogs again this weekend, since I was working them for LonestarBlues (hey, Mike!). Even with a conventional output transformer, those things are just great amps! Mike has the 'Ultimate' upgrade, too. Soundwise, I believe the DRD will be as good and very possibly 'better.' (I'm starting to really dislike the word 'better'). The DRD can also be purchased in either tube or solid state rectified form, which is an area that seems to open a can of worms whenever it is mentioned. The rectifiers job is simply to provide the working DC voltages for the amplifier -- its B+. This is achieved by either a either vacuum tube or SS diodes, but there is is a lack of agreement on which is superior. Many will say that without exception tube rectifiers are better. There is actually a host of reasons why that may not be the case, although I will say I have been very satisfied with those used on both my Moondogs and Horus amps. The best combination that I have found, is SS rectifiers in a preamp, with tubes doing rectifier duty on the downstream amps. But that is just my personal taste. No single person can claim that one is intrinsically better than the other -- there can be no absolute in that sense -- in my opinion. Of the several home-built and already constructed preamps I have had in my system, the one that has been the most transparent, detailed, articulate, etc., is an old Dynaoco PAT 4. Not a tube in sight on that thing. But I use tube amplifiers, and the combination of the two was outstanding...to me. The PAT 4 also has tone controls and a balance control, which to many purists is a 'no-no.' I could care less, and really like having the ability to tweak the signal here and there. Do I mean 'compromise ' the signal? Sure, if that's the case. The point is that regardless of the coloration, I happen to like the particular hue and shade or tint. Ron is not always a man of very many words, as was the case when I talked to him on the phone some time ago. I had asked why he was using more than one chassis ground, and that I thought it could increase the possibility for ground loop hum and noise. Whatever he thought of that suggestion, the last assembly manual shows only a SPG (single-point-ground). Also, if you get a factory-built DRD, you might want to ask him to please double-check the soldering. That might be difficult, but I certainly would. On Mike's factory built Moondogs, the wire dress and layout is first rate, but I found a total of 5 unsoldered joints between the two monoblocks. In Ron's defense, I can only imagine that it must be a lot of work to run the kind of operation he does, and everyone makes mistakes. Ok. The End. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 Oh, When I got the Moondogs, there were a number of 2A3 amps I was considering. The thing that got me hooked, was that I was considering highly sensitive horn speakers at the same time. I was able to get the kit version of the Moondogs as well as two Lowther drivers (very expensive, now!)and the kit version of the Lowther-America Medallion II rear-loaded horn cabinet -- all for under $3,000. This was a package deal put together by Ron Welborne and a very good friend of mine, Tony Glynn, who was then at the helm of Lowther-America. I still love the Lowthers, too. Classical guitar, which I listen to all the time, sounds exceptionally good through those single, (almost)full-range drivers. However, anything with a bit of bass now gets fed to the La Scalas. For sentimental reasons and because the two sound so good together, I'm planning on probably just keeping the Moondogs to use exclusively and in stock form with the Lowthers. I associate all of this with said friend Tony G., and, well...it's just important to me to do that. Tony also has Moondogs, Laurels, Fi 2A3s, and 45 parallel feed amps by John Tucker. Tucker will be exhibiting with Thom Mackris at the up and coming VSAC. Despite the rather under-flattering photograph that was recently supplied, there are some truly talented designers taking part. I would love to be able to attend, and would opt for something like that over New York because I like smaller, more intimate crowds. There would also be the opportunity to talk with guys whose knowledge of all of this I would love to have myself. A picture has absolutely zero to do with what goes on in the heart and mind. Another guy named Josh Stypich (I think that's spelled wrong, sorry, Josh!) will probably also be attending, and this fellow -- still only in his 20s is an absolute artist and uncommonly talented designer. He is a brain and a half! I would love to see his work, and If I had the talent of KH, would post an example of his work here. This guy as very serious metal-working ability, and has really formed an interesting bridge between sculpture, audio, and electronics. Marie is up -- we get to go bike riding! I wish my Cagiva was leaking gas from one of the quick-connects on the tank, or I'd be on that right now Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 Stan, I don't know why Ron changed from one amp design to the other. Folks here like Painful Reality, Erik, Leok, Mobile Homeless can give you much better insights on the differences between all these products. Erik, Josh Stippich does design some cool looking gear, but it is a tad "too rad" for me. Here is a photo taken from Electron Luv, Josh's website: Here is an article about Josh from last December. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 Thanks for that help, Ed! ...just went looking for other photos of Welborne's Yota 2A3. It's interesting looking -- very simple, and deeper than I thought. There may in fact be a conventional OPT inside the thing, and thus it may not be a parallel-feed circuit at all. I see no tube rectifier, though, which again, if used, might be inside the amplifier -- Probably not since those things tend to get pretty warm. He likes SS diodes in the DRD, and so may use them in the Yota, as well. Stan: sorry, I never really answered your question about the Horus and DRD sound differences. I haven't heard the actual DRD, only my own sort of inaccurate rendition of it. The Horus is very quick in terms of transient response and detail. High frequencies, though probably not higher in terms of actual frequency, seem to be a bit more emphasized than they were with my Moondogs in 'W.E. or Ultrapath mode' There is what might be described as a greater sense of presence, and high frequency transients like rim-shots, guitar picking, fingers moving along fretboards, etc. have a sort of polished quality that was less pronounced than the Moondogs. But again, my Moondog was not a 'true' DRD design. The DRD is a circuit optimized for the amplification of low-level detail, and as I said before uses a combination of direct and indirect coupling. Kelly has raised the point about the various DRD versions, including the use of the 300B, 2A3, or 45 triodes. Ron also mentions that he does not believe in a single design that is able to incorporate a sort of 'soup-of-the-day-' approach with output tubes, where all one has to do is flip a switch connected to a dropping resistor for whatever tube may be on the menu. The choice for either of the three would depend on the type of music you listen to, how loud you listen, the speakers and preamp you have, etc. If you haven't been on the Welborne forum, I suggest a visit there. If you don't get an overly detailed response from Ron, there are others there who have helpful experience. Marie has loaded bicycles with water bottles, so I gotta run! Let me think about your other question..... Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuffclean Posted September 14, 2003 Author Share Posted September 14, 2003 Hey edster00......your 2 Channel System with the Khorns is probably my destination, eventually. I've always had my eye on the Supratek Pre-Amps down the road a piece. Moondogs, DRD's, or JFL Horus's are on my short list. Question, why do you use a Pre? I noticed that Erik who has a similiar Amp set-up does not use a Pre at present. Your thoughts? Just curious. Edster00 2 Channel System: '78 K-horns w/ALK networks JF Lessard Horus Cobalt/Parafeed 2A3 SET Monoblocks Welborne Labs Moondog 2A3 SET Monoblocks Supratek Syrah preamp Erik 2 Channel System: Speakers: La Scalas & Lowther PM2As/Medallion Horns Amplifiers:JFL Horus 2A3 Welborne Labs Moondogs Preamp:none right now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 I use a preamp mainly because I have so many sources. I currently have a tuner, CDP, DVD/CDP, and TV all going through the preamp. I am trying my best to stay out of the vinyl-go-round even though the Syrah has a great phono section. I know it is heresy to some here to have the TV in my 2 channel rig, and it surely compromises my sound, but I do enjoy it watching from time to time. Here is where you can find me most of the time: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuffclean Posted September 14, 2003 Author Share Posted September 14, 2003 Is this audio research upgrade worthwhile for the SP-3A-1? Seems very pricy at $795. Don't know if this is a wise investment in the Pre. Any thoughts? Some have suggested that this Pre in general is not a great choice for SET amps. Would this upgrade bridge the gap? http://www.audioresearch.com/SP3-update.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuffclean Posted September 14, 2003 Author Share Posted September 14, 2003 Gosh darn edster00...........dat dare shure is a purty set-up. Tip my hat to ya. Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 I thought Josh's gear was a little "Too Rad" at first. But, in a world of Bud Boxes and wooden frames, the Art Deco look is a change. The metal work is first rate, true art pieces. And at around $35,000, let's just say they are "Too Spendy". Hit his site and look at the schematics, he is a big fan of Mercury Vapor Rectifiers, and Transformer coupling. Edster, Don't feel bad about using a TV in your system, throw a blanket over it. When I eventually have a pre, I'll run the S link from the DVD to the TV. Then L and R to the pre. 2 Channel HT. Yes, it's purist blasphemy. But I like watching movies once in a while. I better make up my mind whether to go VSAC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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