KCM Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 I built a pair of Type A crossovers to replace the AL's in my La Scala's this week and something is definitely wrong here...... They don't sound better; in fact, they're much worse. I used Alpha-Core foil inductors, Sonicaps, and #3619 transformers. I'm pretty certain they are wired correctly as I followed the Klipsch schematic I dug up here and used Cut-Throats pictures as a further reference. What I hear is lots more volume from the squawker and lots more volume/midrange from the tweeter. This has totally changed the balance of the speaker from fantastically engaging and musical to hyper detailed, clinical, bass shy, and fatigueing. Is this normal, or did I (hopefully) screw something up along the way ? Thanks for any suggestions ! Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 What kind of midrange driver do you have? Did you use the transformer from the AL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 What's the rating of the foil inductor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCM Posted January 18, 2004 Author Share Posted January 18, 2004 Guy - Driver is K-55-M. The transformer is the #3619 from Universal. Signal goes in on tap 5, out on 4, "-" is connected to 0. Tom - 2.5 mH Thanks, Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 The original driver in the type A was K-55-V and is rated 16 ohm. If I'm not wrong, The K-55-M is 4 ohm, and you'll need to use different taps on the transformer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCM Posted January 18, 2004 Author Share Posted January 18, 2004 Hmmmm, I just measured the impedance of the drivers and found the following: Woofer 3.7, Squawker 10.5, Tweeter 5.7. Seems like the K-55-M squawker would be more likely rated at 16 ohm. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 If you can condition the new caps you'll get a much better sense of the fully "broken-in" sound. The new tweeter high pass cap(s) may be leaking midrange frequencies to the tweeter. This may not be the complete story on what you're hearing, but it may be a substantial contributor. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 If the AL uses T2 transformer, just use the same tap. There was some kind of network that had a capacitor wired directly to the woofer terminals. It might be the AL, but again, I'm not sure. If you have a cap across the woofer terminal, it needs to be unsoldered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Ken, The Type A has less losses in the tweeter section making it a dB or 2 hotter. That is all you should really notice. Try to post pictures and a sketch of your actual networks. If we can see it, maybe we can help. The K-55-M's impedance at 400 Hz may be different meaning you will have to change the squawker cap or add a resistor. The DCR of one of my -Vs is 10.5 and another is 10.3, though. I've always thought the -M was more efficient than the -V, but there is little hard evidence to support that conclusion. I had a pair of '87 La Scalas with Type AL networks and K-55-M squawkers. I cannot imagine calling them "fantastically engaging and musical". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 A couple things; When I was experimenting with oil caps vs. Cheapie Solens, ALK had mentioned that he thought the Litz Perfect wound inductor would have more impact on a Type 'A' than the Caps. You may try the Litz Inductors. Also, Hyper detailed and clinical is usually a good thing with speakers and this may be allowing you to hear other weak things in your entire system. What Amplification are you using? Also, you may be used to the way things sounded with your old crossovers and your ears need more time to 'Break-In' to the new sound. But usually, If hear more Detail, that is a good thing for myself. If by chance you are using Solid State amplification, that would explain almost everything to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCM Posted January 18, 2004 Author Share Posted January 18, 2004 Thanks for the tips, guys. John, I guess it's all relative.....By comparison to what I'm used to, they are...or, well....they were Kevin, I am using Gary Dodd's 8 watt amp (the one Danny shows on his site - I have a pair of Paradox 3's, also), so that's not it. Volume control is a Luminous Audio passive. Sources include a SACDMods tweaked Sony SACD player, Music Hall MMF-7 TT, and a Scott 350 tube tuner. As for more detail being better, I agree with you in principle. But, when it makes me cringe, it's not enjoyable and something's wrong. It's as if I had tone controls and just maxed the treble. Here's the schematic I followed: http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/files/BigTypeA7.jpg Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 OK, your amplification is fine. The things that are different on my Type 'A' is the inductor - (I'm using the Litz) and the Autoformer. I am using the T2A that came out of a pair of type "AB"s. Are your speakers in an overally 'bright' room? I agree that the type 'A's are more detailed and brighter, and being in an overally bright room may have magnified this to a point where the sound is uncomfortable. Remember the room and acoustics over half of the equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 "and lots more volume/midrange from the tweeter." That is to be expected since you switched from basically an elliptic filter on the tweeters low pass having somewhere around 100db/octave attenuation to a first order crossover at 6dB/octave. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Don't let anyone convince you it's "better" if you don't like it. Put it back the way it was, and save your money for some ALKs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 BTW, How long have you been using them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 There is some smoothing and relaxation with break-in, but nothing that is going to change the sonic signature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCM Posted January 18, 2004 Author Share Posted January 18, 2004 They probably only have 3-4 hours on them. I've had them in and out three times trying to figure out what is going on. I think I will agree now that the sound is in some ways improved, but the complete lack of bass is not going to be acceptable. Maybe I should try a resistor on the squawker & tweeter to bring the balance back close to where it was ? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Try to run them without the woofer inductors. I ran my new woofer inductor in my stock crossover for a month, before installing it in the type A. It took more than 3-4 hours for it to break in (nearly 50). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Don't let anyone convince you it's "better" if you don't like it. Put it back the way it was, and save your money for some ALKs. Don't let anyone convince you an ALK's "better". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 KCM, could you replicate the T2 taps used on your AL for the type A? There is clearly something very wrong, the type A sound instantly sound magical and wonderful beyond all reasonable expectation. I hate to say this but it's likely that you've made a mistake in the wiring somehow. Can you take a picture and post it? If it's sufficiently high resolution we can trace the wiring and help troubleshoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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