Colin Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 You can say anything with a smile on your face and get away with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 Anarchist, We're just going to have to disagree; at least in the area of rights and their limits. The other things you've said I seem to agree with. Being a libertarian at heart, I've attempted to understand the Constitution and some of the contemporaneous writings of the time about it. It is the "contract" between the government and the population. It was written primarily to restrict the power of the government. Please check for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 ---------------- On 3/20/2004 11:56:59 PM Anarchist wrote: Oh my, I find all this far too amusing but the last post troubles me. Freedom of speech is only applicable when used to berate the Federal govt? I have no right to cuss in a shopping mall? What?! This idea is so problematic I will refrain from espousing every thought I have on the topic. Suffice it to say those who accept or propose limitations on their freedoms and constitutionally provided rights deserve neither. We have so strayed from what our forefathers preached, we shall soon find ourselves wondering what the hell happened and question how we became mere cogs in the machine; all in the name of being politically correct. The intolerant are now tolerated. Frankly, and why no one has mentioned this I do not know, it would not, and does not, cost much money to set up a server and bulletin board. Perhaps I will put one up for Klipsch afficionados who feel the need to occasionally discuss issues other than audio and perhaps a special section for those who want to occasionally hurl barbs and insults. Should get quite a bit of use because despite the protests to the contrary, every one of the threads on this board where insults have occurred have a higher level of views than anything else; if only we could be honest with ourselves. ---------------- Anarchist, I think your idea to set up an alternative Klipsch BBS is a good one. Take thou the authority and get it set up. That way you are free to have a forum with no rules or expectations for civil discourse. Perhaps it will be a roaring success. In contrast, it is the usually prevailing climate of decent courtesy that IMO sets the klipsch forum apart from most internet "communities". I disagree that there is a higher value to the threads with insults. What I suspect happens on a forum is similar to driving a car. I see people honking, swearing, giving the finger to others while they are driving. Most of these people wouldn't even imagine themselves doing the same thing in line at Walmart or in face to fact contact. It seems to be the more anonymous character of being in a car that people seem to feel more free to show their butts. I believe something of this nature happens on an internet forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stan krajewski Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 Freedom of speach? It depends on what you say, where you say ,how you say it and who you say it to. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 ---------------- On 3/21/2004 7:43:45 PM 3dzapper wrote: Rick ---------------- Speechless ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 I really can't believe that some people are talking about "Freedom of Speach" and censorship and stuff as if this forum was some sort of publicly held and operated platform. It's THEIR BULLETIN BOARD. They host it for us FOR FREE. They let anyone who wants to post just about anything they want. They even let their compeditors in here, as long as they identify themselves as such. If Klipsch decided no one was allowed to post anything that mentioned Iraq, Mars, the IRS, Howard Stern, Micro$oft or Blue Swede Shoes, it's their board. I am amazed at the tolerance and willingness to let people post almost completely unrestrained that they've shown to date. If I was the moderator, I'd've shut down a bunch of threads and permanently banned a few people's IP addresses and user names a long, long time ago. I used to run a BBS for my old Internet company, Freshnex.com, where we let chefs and other food service people exchange comments and ideas. I'd've been *SHOT by my Board of Directors if they'd gone onto our BBS and seem some of the stuff that Klipsch allowed, particularly the more energetic discussions about whose subwoofers are better, Klipsch or Carver or SVS or VMPS or Velodyne or Paradyme or this or that or those... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOADEDTUNES Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 And if you don't agree with ray then head over too or talk to anyone from the AVS forum . Man there quick to draw down on the flamers . Remember the " Rocket VS klipsch " ordeal ? That thread got locked as soon as the mods got wind of our board members involvement. Yet that was going quite well as far as a decent discussion. I've seen things get totaly out of hand here yet our mods hardly get involved at all. I'm all for a little banter , if fact i quite enjoy laughing at it . But when personal insults are the " first " line of defence to a thread you don't agree with then you can hardly fault the moderators for " TRYING " to keep there forum in check . Most , in fact 90% of the flaming i see here are personal attacks that do not address the content of another forum members post " but " instead go directly to his personality. Just goes to show how swift the flamer is when they can't address the topic but have a need to demean the person who posted it. I don't care how dumb stupid or totaly uninformed a post is , i for one don't jump right in and call the person down before trying to clarify there comments. If someone posts that they don't believe a klipsch product can deliver the performance there looking for then we as a family should be " first " asking " why " and see if we can help or if the post is sporting a fight right off the start. Instead of wheeling insults at the first sight of another person not seeing the klipsch world as we do. PS: I love my k-horns but i use to own planers , both have there place and both are better at something the other is not. This does not mean that one is better or worse than the other just not the same . Just like people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 As usual, Gil and Ray are right about the "freedom of speech" thing. If I went over to your house and spray painted graffiti all over it, do I have the right to do that because of MY freedom of speech? Of course not. This is no different. This is Klipsch's "house" and we are fortunate they allow us to write anything on it. I have been a member of this forum for several years, since near the beginning. I used to say that it was the best forum on the Internet, and fully believed that. Maybe it still is, but it's definitely not as good as it used to be. I didn't expect it to last forever though, with all the new members that join daily, it was likely that there would be bad apples who didn't care if the forum got shut down or not. As a result, I no longer spend as much time on this forum. Maybe that's not such a bad thing for me personally, as this forum doesn't consume as much of my time as it used to, but it's not good for the forum. There are quite a few knowledgable people on this forum that have helped me build a better system and increase my audio knowledge. Hopefully I have also provided some of that to others. Personally, I wouldn't mind at all if Klipsch would ban all current and future offenders (and there are several) -- even if this meant losing some valuable knowledge. I wouldn't want those contributions to go, but it's better to lose a handful of members than the entire forum. The way things have gone here lately, I couldn't blame Klipsch for putting an end to this thing if things don't improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 without drawing out the point anarchist, as others have said, your constitutional rights are rights which are protected from government action...has nothing to do with relations between private parties. as much as I don't agree with the recent 2 channel shut-down, klipsch can do what they want. you have no right to free speech here. the idea that we post at klipsch's pleasure and b/c of their genorosity is equally absurd. they wouldn't let us play here if it didn't translate into $$ for them somehow. the company that shuts down the jubilee and brings synergy to the masses has its eye on one thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 Kev: I agree that Klipsch does receive some financial benefit by having this forum. In fact, I would guess that a very large percentage of their Heritage sales to people that have never heard Heritage before are a result of this forum since the dealers that have Heritage on display are almost extinct. However, it is their forum and they can do whatever the want with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 ---------------- On 3/19/2004 7:38:48 PM NOSValves wrote: Ahhh heck its everyones fault they shut it down there is not one of us that is not guilty of being intolerant at times. ---------------- It sure as hell wasn't my fault! I was away for the past four days skiing up in Vermont - so I obviously missed all the fun and games in there. I go away for a few days, and look what happens! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 Anarchist wrote: Certainly the owner of private property has the right to choose to ask me to leave, voluntarily or forcefully, if my exercise of free speech or choice of language offends them or breaks 'their' rules. I still "have" that right nonetheless. If in my use of free speech I also must stay within the confines of other laws ie. I can not provoke a riot. There is no disputing private entities can allow or permit as much discussion as they deem necessary. Spray painting graffiti on my home is NOT an exercise of free speech but rather vandalism. Damaging my property is a hostile act. Such an act would be met with hostility. I would suggest you are incorrect in your belief our 'rights' are only a contract between us and the government however. They do extend beyond the government and certainly have a place and protection even between private parties. As just a simple example, attempt to prevent a minority from entering a place of business, a church, a neighborhood, a mall or what have you and watch how fast you discover their rights exist beyond their relationship with the govt. The Constitution outlines the rights of the federal govt, state govts, and citizens. Any right not expressly given to the feds or state thereby resides within the individual. I am myself a history buff and enjoy reading the writings of the authors and their take on the Constitution and what they were trying to achieve. I also am able to look at our govt. and see how many areas they have overstepped their bounds to limit our rights - which are not all enumerated in the Constitution. I am also able to see, with substantial dismay, how many citizens don't recognize their actions are, in fact, counter to the idea of democracy. I am also a libertarian - I don't want the govt. (or anyone else for that matter) interfering in my personal life or concerning themselves with my financial well-being. Frankly, it does not matter one iota to me if a couple individuals on here decide to insult each other. It should not matter to anyone else in my opinion either - regardless of whether it is their buddy or Klipsch. People insult each other every day - if someone visits the Klipsch site and is shocked to see it transpires here as well... they need to wake up and realize we are in the 21st century. How exactly does two monkeys insulting each other reflect poorly on Klipsch? Also, I did not say the posts where the insults took place provide any value nor did I say Klipsch should permit them. I stated those threads which contain the barbs, sarcasm, political discussions, religious discussions, and insults garner more views and more responses than all the other threads. Further, reviewing those threads should teach us that not many people bother to read all that well as many times simple statements are taken as insults and then the 'insulted' feels they must retaliate which then provokes a 'real' personal attack. I would, if I were Klipsch, certainly prevent folks from using 'my' assets to promote my competitors products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBB Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 M= Man looking for an argument A= Arguer M: (Knock, Knock) A: Come in. M: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument? A: I told you once. M: No you haven't. A: Yes I have. M: When? A: Just now. M: No you didn't. A: Yes I did. M: You didn't A: I did! M: You didn't! A: I'm telling you I did! M: You did not!! A: Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour? M: Oh, just the five minutes. A: Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did. M: You most certainly did not. A: Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you. M: No you did not. A: Yes I did. M: No you didn't. A: Yes I did. M: No you didn't. A: Yes I did. M: No you didn't. A: Yes I did. M: You didn't. A: Did. M: Oh look, this isn't an argument. A: Yes it is. M: No it isn't. It's just contradiction. A: No it isn't. M: It is! A: It is not. M: Look, you just contradicted me. A: I did not. M: Oh you did!! A: No, no, no. M: You did just then. A: Nonsense! M: Oh, this is futile! A: No it isn't. M: I came here for a good argument. A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument. M: An argument isn't just contradiction. A: It can be. M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. A: No it isn't. M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction. A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position. M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.' A: Yes it is! M: No it isn't! A: Yes it is! M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes. A: No it isn't. M: It is. A: Not at all. M: Now look. A: (Rings bell) Good Morning. M: What? A: That's it. Good morning. M: I was just getting interested. A: Sorry, the five minutes is up. M: That was never five minutes! A: I'm afraid it was. M: It wasn't. A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore. M: What?! A: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes. M: Yes, but that was never five minutes, just now. Oh come on! A: (Hummmmm) M: Look, this is ridiculous. A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid! M: Oh, all right.(pays money) A: Thank you. M: Well? A: Well what? M: That wasn't really five minutes, just now. A: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid. M: I just paid! A: No you didn't. M: I DID! A: No you didn't. M: Look, I don't want to argue about that. A: Well, you didn't pay. M: Aha. If I didn't pay, why are you arguing? I Got you! A: No you haven't. M: Yes I have. If you're arguing, I must have paid. A: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time. M: Oh I've had enough of this. A: No you haven't. M: Oh Shut up! (Monty Python) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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