Type A network listening experience

[Deang]

I spent a good part of the afternoon over at Johnny Db's house. John is a great guy, and we had a blast -- uh -- literally.

John has a nice house for Klipschorns, powered by a slew of NOS Valves Scotts, and surrounded by Paul Parrot's old Heresies. Today however, we spent our time in the back room with his vintage LaScalas, his ASL EL-34 integrated, and my Type A rebuilds. I didn't need to take any music, because John pretty much had everything and anything I like.

While I was there, Bkrop's case for John's 292 showed up, and I've got to say -- it was evident there was some time put into it, and I thought it looked great. He's making these now with wood slats across the top, and it really adds a serious touch of class.

At any rate...

After getting to know each other a little, we decided to go back and load up the LaScalas. Since the ASL didn't have a balance knob, I decided to load up just one, because I wanted to see if I could hear any immediate differences between the Type A, and the stock AA's in the other LaScala. I couldn't, not right way -- but John could. After a few songs, I was getting a better handle on things, and we decided to load up the other side.

After a few minutes, I told John that I could solder, but couldn't use a screwdriver. I had a hell of time in the back of that cubby. We spent a good two hours listening, and time was really moving fast -- but so was the music! The little ASL amp kicks some serious butt, a very impressive unit for the money. Of course, I've never heard an EL-34 amp I didn't like.

The combination of the Type A circuit with the Hovland and Auricaps was terrific. Reports of overmodulation of the tweeter with this network, I think -- are somewhat overstated. We didn't hear anything we didn't like. The sound was clean, smooth, and at no point did things sound congested or compressed. Even during the most complex passages, vocals and instruments layered deeper in the recording were easy to hear. Through some of this, we were showing peaks of 110db -- and neither of us were sensing any ringing or smearing. My ears never felt fatiqued, and I was very surprised at how good it sounded.

I had expected the Type A to sound very bright -- it doesn't. However, I should mention that I was coming off the #3 tap on the autoformer for the squawker. When I had them on the workbench, I was looking at that cap bank and silver wire, and started thinking about the kind of music and recordings Craig listens too -- and immediately went for the #3 tap. They can be easily switched to the #4 tap, since I soldered a lead from it -- and that is still something I would like to hear. At this point however, it's hard for me to imagine it being an improvement -- especially with rock music.

I really like PK's Type A.

[Johnny dB]

Yep, Dean finally came over, and he sure is one hulluva nice guy! Sorry it took me all day to finally post about this. Shortly after Dean left, my lady came home from clothes shopping and I had to spend some quality time w/ her.

First let me make a correction to Dean's post. It was "arfz28" that built my walnut cabinet for my Scott 272. Alan, I must say I'm impressed. I'll post pics soon. Dean and I got a kick out of unpacking that cabinet! Alan must be very anal retentive. I've had amplifiers sent to me that haven't been packed as well as that cabinet was. Nice job!

Now back to Dean's Type A crossovers. Absolutely, positively, a better sound is now emitting from my '76 LaScalas! Like he'd said, when the type A crossover was on the left ch. and the stock AA on the right I immediately heard the difference. To me the AA sounded like it was in a tunnel. The mids just seemed to resonate. I don't think Dean had planned on putting both crossovers in at first but the sound of the type AA paled in comparison to the new type A. Once both were in place, I was ecstatic about what I was hearing. They sounded great at all volumes! We listened to mostly modern rock and some heavy sh!t as well. The playlist included: Alice in Chains, Primer55, Transplants, Toadies, Probot, and A Perfect Circle to name a few. I don't know if what I was hearing was better by design and/or if my type AAs are just old and out of spec. Either way I'll definately have to address my crossover problem.

Dean's being a nice guy and letting me borrow the Type A crossovers for a week or so. I doubt I'll be able to go back to the Type AA crossovers. It's probably part of his plan to get me to buy a pair from him.

Craig, I doubt you'd like these. So I'll just hold on to them for you. You're probably too busy to even put them in. I tell you what; I'll call you, put you on the speaker-phone, crank it up, and you can decide for yourself.

[Johnny dB]

Here's a pic of the back of one of the LaScalas, shows both crossovers. It sure was a PITA (for Dean) working in the tight space.

[Daddy Dee]

Dean and Johnnydb,

Thanks for the posts and review on A's.

Dean, or anyone whod want to chime in, what result would you expect from choosing the #4 for the squawker? Is #4 the usual default?

I've been listening to a pair of Bob Crites' replacement type A's in my Khorns since December and have been pleased with them.

[Deang]

My apologies to arfz28. Hey, at least I know who really makes those cabinets now!

Dee, the #4 tap on the autoformer is the default setting for the Type As. Moving to the #3 tap lowers the squawker output about 3db. I felt lowering the output here would help things with the music some of us like to listen too. I did a lot of searching on the forum regarding the use of the different taps, and I ended up suspecting that preference might be determined by musical taste, gear, and setup. Those using low power amplification, sane listening levels, and most jazz -- might prefer the #4 taps. With hard rock, alternative, and metal, I think it might be too much -- raising pressure within the lens throat, and causing higher levels of distortion. I think it also lowers resonances which tend excite the lens itself.

We'll do it again John -- it was fun.

[lynnm]

Hello Dean and Johnny

I am curious how do like the ASL with the Lascalas and the type A's as compared with other amps you have heard ?

My setup includes an AQ1003DT powering a pair of 1982 Khorns which have had their AA's modded to Type A.

and like the sound very much.

[BEC]

Using tap 3 instead of 4 will lower the squawker output about 3 db. I say "about" because a slightly different impedance will be reflected to to circuitry by the use of the lower tap and everything will equalize at some point. In other words, power to all three drivers will be slightly different. The difference in the way the speaker sounds to me is more subtile than it seems a 3 db drop in squawker output would be. I suppose that is because the tweeter overlaps the squawker so much. I do think that using tap 3 instead of tap 4 will cause the speaker to be somewhat less efficient. Dare I say this? OK, I will say it. Using tap 3 instead of tap 4 makes a Type A crossover sound (to me) more like the ALK crossover.

Bob

[hoggy]

Hey Dean,

What differnce do you think the Auricaps made? BTW I like the ALK's with Auricaps sound better and better every day. I also switched back to the stock X,4 settings on the tap. Seems when you set the squawker down a bit it brings out the bass much better.

hoggy

[Deang]

Bob,

I can't believe you said that about the Type A and the ALKs, because yesterday -- John's LaScalas were reminding me very much of the sound I heard from The Parrot's Klipschorns last November.

Steve,

Definitely, lowering the squawker output helps the bass. To me, it sounded very balanced. So, what difference did the Auricaps make? Maybe you answered the question yourself -- what difference did they make in your ALKs?

All,

After John gets done with them, they go to Bob to be run through the paces on his test equipment -- and listening. Bob's a heavy hitter, and I'm very interested in his thoughts. Bob and I believe some different things, and we build the way we do, and use the parts we do because of those things. We both strongly believe in the "measurements", though I think I lean more on the subjectivism side of the scale -- as I'm covinced these parts have different sonic signatures, and the meaurements don't always tell the whole story -- we'll see.

Bob's way is definitely the affordable option, and what we need to determine now is if there is any real benefit from going the more expensive route. Bob has been very gracious, and we are collaborating on this effort, not as "competitors", but as two people trying to get to the truth -- and offer the best products possible for the Klipsch community.

I will be relying on the input of several people, to determine whether I should offer other options than Bob's. Obviously, if there are no significant measurable or audible differences -- I will step away. There's simply no sense in muddying the waters, or charging people more than need be. However, once all of objective and subjective data is collected, I will determine if my alternatives bring something measureably, and/or subjectively superior -- to the listening experience. If so, I will forge on. Ha! I left myself some wiggle room.

I think I offer some neato features: Star grounding, silver hookup wire, and gasless connections. I do the artsy stuff too, and yeah baby, I charge out the arse for that! Maybe Bob's boards will appeal to the more manly, industrial types -- and my boards to those who are more in touch with their feminine side, and who love to spend money they don't have.

[BEC]

Dean,

This is a case where, I think, personal preference really rules. I have from the beginning wired out tap 3 and 4 on my Type A crossovers that I have built from scratch to make it easy to try both configurations. I personally prefer tap 4 putting the squawker right where PWK had it, but want to allow others to see where their preferrences lie. Similar reasoning applies to my AA crossovers in that I have made them easily "convertible" from Type AA to A. I think that a "one size fits all" attitude is just wrong in talking about listening preferences. What each of us perceives as "right" concerning sound is the result of personal experience and the effect of age on hearing. I would be really kidding myself if I thought I heard sounds now like I heard sounds in my 20's. Add into that mix the differences in audio equipment, room placement, and room size and one would marvel that any two people ever agree on anything concerning audio.

Bob

[Deang]

I agree 100%. I have a lead and connector coming off of the #4 tap -- but the swap isn't as easy to make as it is on your boards.

[Dflip]

What differnce do you think the Auricaps made? BTW I like the ALK's with Auricaps sound better and better every day.

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I was talking to Craig earlier this week about the Auricaps. They take a long time to burn in, so leave them on and let them do their magic. Some of the other forums suggested well over 200 hours to properly burn them in.

I am working on 125 hours on my Mapletree Audio 4A Ultra SE preamp. My old SS Acurus A-150 amp is sounding a lot better than it did with the Acurus RL-11 preamp.

[NOSValves]

Wow great review !

John remember you don't live all that far from me But sit back and enjoy just pay Dean whatever to build me a second set and you keep those if that is easier for you ! I know what its like to give up a improvement and go back so to speak. It can be very depressing.

Craig

[Deang]

Dflip,

My caps are "burned in" before I use them. I apply 85vdc to each cap in both directions before use. Long break in periods are typically required because more times than not -- a capacitor never gets anywhere it's rated voltage in actual use, especially in speaker crossovers. With horns, it's even worse. Incidently, Bob does this too, using his infamous "widowmaker" to apply the voltage. Since I have such a propensity for electrocuting myself -- I use batteries.

Lynn,

I liked the sound of the ASL integrated very much. All I can say is the combination of things in that room sounded nothing short of wonderful. I have almost zero experience with Heritage, different amps, and the various crossovers. In a general way, I feel confident saying that a good set of Type As, in a set of LaScalas, and EL-34s sounds awesome. Did I really just say that?

[NOSValves]

Get some real power behind them Lasies and you would really freak! No ear bleeding buddy !

[NOSValves]

In the picture above I swear I see a original Klipsch Crossover that has white caps ? What is up with that ?

Craig

[Guy Landau]

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On 4/18/2004 10:43:14 AM DeanG wrote:

II feel confident saying that a good set of Type As, in a set of LaScalas, and EL-34s sounds awesome. Did I really just say that?----------------

I have to agree. I was mostly using EL34 based amplifiers with my Type A and Khorns (Marantz 2 & 8B, Radford STA15 and STA25).

[Randy Taylor]

I guess I'am one of the poor boys on this forum I only have a pair of Heresy II's (97's I think) never opened them up ( I think the back dosen't come off, I guess you take out the woofer?)does it have a crossover set up like the Lascalas and can I up grade the caps if I wanted to down the road? I mean they sound great but if I can make them sing better down the road for not a great deal of money I might tackle it. I have read about people upgrading old Heresies but you never hear much about what's in and what you can do with Heresy II's

[Deang]

Yes Randy, you can easily change the caps in your crossover if you want.

Craig -- I didn't remove the old boards. I just slid mine in on the other side, and moved the wires from the original board -- to mine.

[Johnny dB]

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On 4/18/2004 11:30:26 AM NOSValves wrote:

Get some real power behing them Lasies and you would really freak! No ear bleeding buddy !

----------------

Real power... Ha. The ASL is 30W/ch. More than enough for me. The Volume knob was @ the 11:00 position and we were hitting 110db peaks. That's as loud as I usually go, out of respect for my neighbors and I don't like the police knockin' at my door. I got warrants.